The Leg Blaster Thread - are we having fun yet?

[bodywhomper]

I’ve been told, countless times, that my glutes are on fire!! :P

[californiagrown]

I'd cosign all of this. The places where form matters are pretty small. A few such situations:

Heavy lifts where bad form will transfer the weight from strong weightbearing muscle groups to weaker stablizing ones. Squats for example. If you are close to a squat max and you stop arching your back you can put enough weight on stabilizing muscles that they spasm or tear out. Which is bad.

Bad form can cause the intended muscles groups to not get worked. Squats again - many middle aged folks don't fire their glutes very well. Squats and other exercises can remedy that, but not if you are using form that bypasses the glutes.

But otherwise, totally agree. When I'm at my speed/skill limit on skis I'm hitting movement patterns that are pretty darn suboptimal. That's sort've part of the deal. Same with any ball sport. And that' variation of movement is actually super healthy for your body. It's one of the reasons that using different weights and motions to train a muscle group works so well - variation is good. Let's just use squats again as an example - back bar, front bar, trap bar, kettlebell, heels elevated, body weight etc - yer gonna do them all slightly differently. Nothing bad about that.

To an extent i agree. But, IMO, there is a pretty large place for training proper movement patterns to carry over to sport- see the elite trainers working with high level volleyball and basketball athletes to groove jumping and landing form to mitigate impact injuries. One of the reasons the final part of my leg-day dynamic warmup is to do one legged hockey jumps with a soft catch and pause is because i am trying to groove stable absorption, and jumping patterns for skiing.

E.g. if you have valgus knee when squatting or lunging, you probably have it while skiing. And it would behoove you from a health and performance perspective to fix the motor patterns and muscle imbalances causing that instead of just accepting it as your "natural movement".


Also, how hard to push in the gym is a fairly subjective issue. I personally, am of the opinion that safety should not be compromised in the gym and injury is to be avoided at nearly all cost in the gym, and pushing beyond your limits should be done playing the sport. the issue with that is sport is a lot less controlled, so pushing past your limit out there probably poses a higher risk of injury than in the controlled environment of the gym. My thought is that pretty much no matter how good of shape you are in you will be pushing past your limit while playing the sport, so it would be best (especially as you age and take longer to recover from injury), to limit how often you are risking injury (I.e. not in the gym). Its a personal equation for each person that goes beyond just black and white statistics on injury rates- its more akin to personal risk tolerance.

[shera]

I decided to do 12 weeks next summer with a proper heavy lifting program. Need to decide between a crossfit box and a regular gym. Even though I really admire crossfit and think it's sooooo fun I guess I'll go to the regular gym and try not to get myself hurt.

[TAFKALVS]

I decided to do 12 weeks next summer with a proper heavy lifting program. Need to decide between a crossfit box and a regular gym. Even though I really admire crossfit and think it's sooooo fun I guess I'll go to the regular gym and try not to get myself hurt.

Neither, find a strength and conditioning or CrossFit style gym but with an open gym format that doesn’t force you in to class.

[shera]

Yeeaah I don't think they'd have to force me.

I'm just kinda curious what a classic compound heavy (6 reps) program could do for me over 12 weeks. No distractions, perfect discipline. Been a very long time since I've done something like that.

[californiagrown]

Yeeaah I don't think they'd have to force me.

I'm just kinda curious what a classic compound heavy (6 reps) program could do for me over 12 weeks. No distractions, perfect discipline. Been a very long time since I've done something like that.

i think he was saying to find a crossfit box that allows you to workout at the facility without having you join a class. Many boxes only allow people to workout as part of a class, or if they do have open gym periods, the open gym hours are really shitty and inconvinient. So just make sure you know the logistics.

I would argue that you would see more benefit from any of the standard 5x5 programs than the likely to be suggested 5/3/1... simply because of the relatively short time frame. Either would be good though.

[pfluffenmeister]

7 minis today.

Was gassed on set 6 and did lunges/jumping lunges out of order (which was momentarily confusing).

[alias_rice]

To an extent i agree. But, IMO, there is a pretty large place for training proper movement patterns to carry over to sport- see the elite trainers working with high level volleyball and basketball athletes to groove jumping and landing form to mitigate impact injuries. One of the reasons the final part of my leg-day dynamic warmup is to do one legged hockey jumps with a soft catch and pause is because i am trying to groove stable absorption, and jumping patterns for skiing.

E.g. if you have valgus knee when squatting or lunging, you probably have it while skiing. And it would behoove you from a health and performance perspective to fix the motor patterns and muscle imbalances causing that instead of just accepting it as your "natural movement".

I think when you are talking about sport specific movements I agree with you. When my kid is doing tee work I always tell him that 30 well executed swings a day is much more valuable that 150 rushed hacks. Zach Dechant (TCU basecall S&C coach) has a really good book out called "Movement over Maxes", where he talks about how young athletes should focus on mastering the 5 big movement patterns (squat, hinge, upper body push, upper body pull, and core and single leg) before they even begin to use them to gain strength. Mastering the movements alone will help build the foundational athleticism that is typically more important for on field performance. And then over the years as the movements are your natural movements your in gym and on field ceiling is significantly raised. But his book is written for 12-20 year old athletes, I not sure it is still applicable to the 50 year old dentists on this thread.

[TAFKALVS]

i think he was saying to find a crossfit box that allows you to workout at the facility without having you join a class. Many boxes only allow people to workout as part of a class, or if they do have open gym periods, the open gym hours are really shitty and inconvinient. So just make sure you know the logistics.

I would argue that you would see more benefit from any of the standard 5x5 programs than the likely to be suggested 5/3/1... simply because of the relatively short time frame. Either would be good though.

Yep. Found a gym locally that has CrossFit style classes but open gym via key card is available 95% of the time, so long as you’re okay with staying out of the way of people convulsing on pull-up bars from time to time. I’m able to go in and do my thing whenever it works for me, which is great.

Speaking of gyms, if you’re not doing heavy sled push/pulls at least a few days a week, you are missing out.

[2FUNKY]

Crossfitters, the only thing worse than a vegan…..


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[zion zig zag]

Crossfitters, the only thing worse than a vegan…..


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What about a vegan crossfitter from Texas? That is also a ski instructor.

[alias_rice]

What a vegan crossfitter from Texas? That is also a ski instructor.

They no doubt drive up the canyon with bald tires.

[californiagrown]

Speaking of gyms, if you’re not doing heavy sled push/pulls at least a few days a week, you are missing out.

I need to find a manual treadmill (w/ resistance and incline settings) to try and mimic sled pulls in my in my tiny garage gym. the "older" i get the more low impact, high force output movements intrigue me- like sled pushes/pulls... but an actual sled just isnt feasible for my situation.

Crossfitters, the only thing worse than a vegan…..

I would like to humbly submit nominations on behalf of my fellow engineers, and Californians.

[panchosdad]

I think when you are talking about sport specific movements I agree with you. When my kid is doing tee work I always tell him that 30 well executed swings a day is much more valuable that 150 rushed hacks. Zach Dechant (TCU basecall S&C coach) has a really good book out called "Movement over Maxes", where he talks about how young athletes should focus on mastering the 5 big movement patterns (squat, hinge, upper body push, upper body pull, and core and single leg) before they even begin to use them to gain strength. Mastering the movements alone will help build the foundational athleticism that is typically more important for on field performance. And then over the years as the movements are your natural movements your in gym and on field ceiling is significantly raised. But his book is written for 12-20 year old athletes, I not sure it is still applicable to the 50 year old dentists on this thread.

I'm 63, and pretty much all I do now is try to improve those movements. Sometimes I get a regular gym schedule going and actually start adding weight to those movements, but then I'm gone a couple weeks and it's back to square 1.

[pfluffenmeister]

Graduated from minis early today!
Which I have never done before.
Target was 8; felt strong so finished out to 10.

Honestly, the first group of 5 (a couple of weeks ago) was by far the hardest / most sore.
Currently heat fitting some new shells & Zipfits.
Velvet vice, the fit is nice.

[zion zig zag]

I would argue that you would see more benefit from any of the standard 5x5 programs.

Since 5x5 has been brought up....I have a few questions about it. I'm 50 and feel fit for my primary activities of skiing and MTB, but I have let overall strength decline in the past few years due to dealing with a back injury. My PT has told me that I'd be ok to start lifting some heavy weights again. One of my questions is what is the minimum amount of time I should do a 5x5? I feel like I'm riding too much to recover properly to start now, and I don't want it to creep into ski season. Would a month be sufficient? Is it ok to use off days to do all of my normal core/stability exercises or are they supposed to be strict-no weights days off?

As a side question, I'm super hesitant to do traditional deadlifts with my broken back, so I've been using a trap bar. The problem is, I don't feel like I get the good hamstring work with a trap bar, it feels more glutes and quads. Is that inherent or I am pulling wrong?

[mcski]

My back hurts just reading that lol.

[2FUNKY]

IMHO at over 50 I wouldn’t want to do 5x5 again. I lift regularly, did 5x5 on and off for a few years in my late 20’s, again in my mid 30’s then again in my early 40’s. It is VERY taxing on the body and tendons as you lift very heavy.


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[zion zig zag]

IMHO at over 50 I wouldn’t want to do 5x5 again. I left regularly, did 5x5 on and off for a few years in my late 20’s, again in my mid 30’s then again in my early 40’s. It is VERY taxing on the body and tendons as you lift very heavy.


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Hmmm, I definitely appreciate that perspective. Maybe I'm good just doing what I'm doing? Honestly, overall I'm happy with on mountain performance, my primary goal is injury prevention.

[californiagrown]

Since 5x5 has been brought up....I have a few questions about it. I'm 50 and feel fit for my primary activities of skiing and MTB, but I have let overall strength decline in the past few years due to dealing with a back injury. My PT has told me that I'd be ok to start lifting some heavy weights again. One of my questions is what is the minimum amount of time I should do a 5x5? I feel like I'm riding too much to recover properly to start now, and I don't want it to creep into ski season. Would a month be sufficient? Is it ok to use off days to do all of my normal core/stability exercises or are they supposed to be strict-no weights days off?

As a side question, I'm super hesitant to do traditional deadlifts with my broken back, so I've been using a trap bar. The problem is, I don't feel like I get the good hamstring work with a trap bar, it feels more glutes and quads. Is that inherent or I am pulling wrong?

As 2Funky alluded to, the issue with 5x5 is that it is very intense and taxing and so you both gain strength quickly, but also plateau quickly. 5/3/1 is more intended for years long steady, slow gains. Personally, i like 5x5 because im just maintaining/exercising for most of the year, and then run a 5x5 for 8-12 weeks prior to the start of ski season as a way to peak... and essentially take advantage of Newbie Gains year after year. 5x5 will get you stronger quicker but you will also see progress halt quicker. 5/3/1 variations you will see slower progress, but long term will get you stronger because you can run it for much longer without burning out.


For hammies, with a busted back i would never reccomend deadlifts. I would reccomend single leg RDLs (if your back tolerates that), and also nordic curls (cheap to Mcguyver a setup at home). Keep doing trap bar deadlifts though if your back tolerates it well- still a very underused movement in gyms and i have no idea why it isnt a staple.

[shera]

I was just reading that I should do 6-8 weeks of mid range (8 reps?) before going heavier. I guess to get the tendons, ligaments, and neurals with the program? Avoid injury that way?

Well I've got til next summer to figure it out. Since we're not talking leg blasters at the moment, I have a different question, about sprints. I like to run sprints on Sunday and hike/climb right after that, really get smoked. But I'm still tired now on Tuesday from it. Is that healthy or do I need to dial back until I can recover in a faster interval?

[ptavv]

As to rest periods between sets, there's a good bit of evidence longer is better. Two example papers:
Here

Twenty-one young resistance-trained men were randomly assigned to either a group that performed a resistance training (RT) program with 1-minute rest intervals (SHORT) or a group that employed 3-minute rest intervals (LONG). […] Maximal strength was significantly greater for both 1RM squat and bench press for LONG compared to SHORT. Muscle thickness was significantly greater for LONG compared to SHORT in the anterior thigh, and a trend for greater increases was noted in the triceps brachii (p = 0.06) as well. Both groups saw significant increases in local upper body muscle endurance with no significant differences noted between groups.

and

Here:

Resistance exercise with short (1 min) inter-set rest duration attenuated myofibrillar protein synthesis during the early postexercise recovery period compared with longer (5 min) rest duration, potentially through compromised activation of intracellular signalling.

[Dantheman]

The problem is, I don't feel like I get the good hamstring work with a trap bar, it feels more glutes and quads. Is that inherent or I am pulling wrong?

Inherent. It's a more upright position so engages the hammies less.

For strength programming, I like Galpin's 3-5 rule: 3-5 exercises, 3-5 sets of 3-5 reps, 3-5 times per week.

That's a huge range of overall volume. Work the higher end for pushing strength development in your off season(s), the lower end for in-season maintenance.

For hammies, with a busted back i would never reccomend deadlifts. I would reccomend single leg RDLs (if your back tolerates that), and also nordic curls (cheap to Mcguyver a setup at home).

Concur.

[EWG]

Inherent. It's a more upright position so engages the hammies less.

For strength programming, I like Galpin's 3-5 rule: 3-5 exercises, 3-5 sets of 3-5 reps, 3-5 times per week.

That's a huge range of overall volume. Work the higher end for pushing strength development in your off season(s), the lower end for in-season maintenance.



Concur.

I have a slightly different take on this but it's pretty close. For lower body during the off season I tend to do 2-3 heavy lifts (squats and deads, plus hip thrusts when I'm not being lazy), 3-4 sets of 5-8 reps, twice per week. Even during the "off season" I'm still highly active with my legs, so any more than that I start to be unable to really recover between the sports activities and the lifting. Sometimes I can fit in 3 leg lift days per week but it's rare. During ski season or during period of heavy sports activity (or lots of backpacking) I'll drop to 1 day per week or none.

For upper body stuff I feel that I'm generally strong enough and I'm just looking to maintain strength, not build. I lift upper body 1-2 times per week and I'm staying pretty static. As an example I'll do 5x5 bench press at a certain weight. Sometimes that will be easy, sometimes I can't quite get done, and when I slip like that I up the days a little till I'm back on that plateau. Any more upper body bulk will hurt rather than help, and I'm fairly strong, so it's just maintaining that.

So maybe it's just a personally modified version of what dan's talking about. But the point is to tailor what you are doing to your situation. My lovely wife is quite strict about her lifting, and I htink that leads to some negative situations, like going into a ski trip with gased legs. She getting more flexible about it...

[bodywhomper]

Single leg RDL (with weights) on an upside buso has really helped my hamstrings, glutes, and knee stability.