teaching/coaching skiing--squared up or countered?

[Spats]

How about this:

"Hip counter allows you to anticipate the next turn and get on your new line faster...at the price of generating less power."

(Try doing a regular barbell squat vs. a split squat and you'll see what I mean.)

This is why I view hip counter as more of a transitional thing. During the meat of the turn, you need to be generating maximum power with maximum balance. But as you finish the turn, the weight begins to come off your skis, and you start to set up for the next turn, you can afford some hip counter in order to transition more quickly and smoothly.

I believe this is the key to understanding those GS/SG racer photos where the racers obviously have hip counter. They're looking well down the slope and across their skis...which means they're already through the apex of the turn and are setting up for the next turn, even though they're still way up on edge.

[Dexter Rutecki]

How about this:

"Hip counter allows you to anticipate the next turn and get on your new line faster...at the price of generating less power."

(Try doing a regular barbell squat vs. a split squat and you'll see what I mean.)

This is why I view hip counter as more of a transitional thing. During the meat of the turn, you need to be generating maximum power with maximum balance. But as you finish the turn, the weight begins to come off your skis, and you start to set up for the next turn, you can afford some hip counter in order to transition more quickly and smoothly.

I believe this is the key to understanding those GS/SG racer photos where the racers obviously have hip counter. They're looking well down the slope and across their skis...which means they're already through the apex of the turn and are setting up for the next turn, even though they're still way up on edge.

I'll just say I'm not buying it--if you're seeing photos of racers who look like they're countering (with their hips) in GS or SG it's gotta be a momentary thing and possibly not what they ideally want. Again, SL a different story in certain turns and if the shoulders have gone around a bit but the hips are square it's not an issue.

We do so much video looking at WC skiers and hammer the almost constantly, uniformly squared up position that every single one of them has...if any of them are countering like that I just haven't seen it (nor, apparently, has the rest of the coaching staff).

edit: have really been trying to picture what you describe and it just seems like too radical a move for anything but a SL turn. The move is edge-to-edge for completion/transition and there's just no reason to not maintain the squared up position--you want to stay on the ski through the end of the turn maximizing power and getting across the hill until you're on the new (uphill) outside ski...and during actual transition you're really just staying with the skis. Counter is not desirable. Will be doing some video with kids this week at their camp and I'll check myself yet again to see if I can detect anything like what you described.

[Northway]

How about this:

"Hip counter allows you to anticipate the next turn and get on your new line faster...at the price of generating less power."

…

This is why I view hip counter as more of a transitional thing.

No! (really, no)

‘Transition’ is where you transfer weight from your downhill ski to your uphill ski at the completion of the turn in preparation for your next turn.

Square is critical here. You can’t move to the uphill edge of your uphill (will be new outside) ski with any ankle flexion while the uphill ski is leading, or with hip counter. Hips are square to skis, feet are matching here.

GS:
Transition - square
Initiation - square
Apex - slight inside lead of hips and shoulder.
Completion - square

It’s not the counter of old. But it’s there in the apex of the turn, at the gate. There’s examples in this thread, and watch tommy fords second run at solden this year.

Use caution with young kids though, it’s really easy for them to twist and drop the hip in to ride the sidecut of their ski around in a weak position. There’s a difference between inside lead in a strong position and over countering into a weak position.

[Dexter Rutecki]

When you say 'apex--slight lead of inside hips' are you saying rotated (opposite of counter, in other words)? That's how it sounds to me.

[Northway]

No, inside hip and inside shoulder slightly ahead, putting you in a slight countered position.

So if gate is on your left shoulder, left hip and left shoulder are slightly ahead.

Definitely not rotated.

Shiffrin:

[Northway]

Ford:

[Gepeto]

hold the phone... now there are 3 elements in this discourse and not 2?

OG counter
Square
NS counter


just to differentiate OG/NS...

og upper lower body movements seperate - moments moving tangential and off axis (to one another).

ns upper lower body movement do not separate and remain on the same inertial plane

buuut we're calling that countering to soften the landing on this and appease the unwashed masses

yatzee?

[Dexter Rutecki]

Gepeto is actually going to have to go over to Epic 2.0 to get an answer. Even I'm not a big enough dork to figure any of that out.

No, inside hip and inside shoulder slightly ahead, putting you in a slight countered position.

So if gate is on your left shoulder, left hip and left shoulder are slightly ahead.

Definitely not rotated.

Shiffrin:

Yeah, sorry, I was backwards...dates back to some old trauma inflicted on me by a coach and 'inside hip lead.' Of course you described countering by saying that. However...in that shot of Shiffrin I would still call her basically square just ducking with her shoulder, and we tend not to care very much about the shoulders as long as the hips stay relatively square. Tommy Ford does have some hip funk happening. I guess I'll look at some of that video, but notice his outside arm lead--we do outside arm lead drills all the time in order to...get them square! (The drill is basically a Schlopey but reversed--probably the drill they do most often.) (And for that matter Mikaela has good outside arm lead happening as well--again, she seems to just be ducking the gate with her shoulders.)

I see the counter/squared up thing as the major point of non-consensus in skiing these days, and I actually don't even know what the US Ski and Snowboard party line is anymore. IMO the very small degrees and brief moments of counter, to the extent that they're actually happening in the posted photos, are fine, but I'm also fine with never really encouraging that. So I don't think anyone needs to be incredibly rigid about any of this (as always, just do what works, basically), but I am a little surprised that there isn't a standard on this that USSS pushes. I almost feel like they don't want to address it.

[SkiMangoJazz]

The reason PSIA avoided the term "counter" is because they didn't want people to think of a position, that we ski "into and out of counter" but are never countered. To me this is total BS, but that's the way it was the last I looked.

It is however true that the body is winding and unwinding, UB/LB separation and even multi-part separation where the shoulders turn, or the head turns, or just the lower legs.

All of this is happening throughout the turn, so to say we ski countered is poor wording. Our bodies are constantly spiraling moving into and out of separation, which creates counter.

[Dexter Rutecki]

16 years between posts. I woulda brought this up sooner if I'd known.

But I disagree--a countered position, for our purposes, is one that the racer is trying to achieve and maintain, so it's not a matter of constantly going in and out of counter as we move. Upper body separation isn't necessarily at all related, even though it's part of counter.

[rod9301]

Ford:

He is countered

Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk

[dcpnz]

Dexter can you post a picture of what you think counter looks like?
I’m asking because every picture in this thread, from the sequences Barron de Jong posted a few pages ago to Hirscher pics earlier to the Shiffrin and Ford pics above, do have hip counter to my eye around turn apex and yet you say they’re square.
I guess what you think is square I think is slightly countered and slightly is the key because they’re not all twisted up like a pretzel. I figure if best in the world are doing it consistently it must be fast.

I have no idea how that translates into coaching kids and teaching mechanics though because I don’t think merely getting into that position is the goal. Rather the goal ought to be building edge pressure at right time of a turn and maybe the position is an outcome of doing that.

FWIW I’m no coach and I have zero formal race training but I do have two serious racers at FIS and USSA levels and I’m sitting at Copper right now for a USSki regional development camp so I watch a lot of video with them.

[Dexter Rutecki]

He's countering. If you look at the third and definitely the fourth image he's countered--shoulders facing distinctly downhill away from the direction of travel of skis, arms doing the same. In all the previously posted images you'll see that the racers are driving their outside arms around the turn, which prevents counter--tough to get your hips going in a different direction when your arms are driving like that (which forces the shoulders to also be square, and then you end up fully squared). Tough to find WC racers who aren't square, which is why all those photos don't really show any counter.

In this one my impression is that Felix is a little behind in a quick turn and the counter is helping him throw his skis around. Is it exactly where he wants to be? I'm not sure, but in that circumstance it's the best he could do, probably. And as we've mentioned before, SL is the event where you will see some countering going on.

Could talk it over in person at Copper in a few days if you want...does your kid's FIS program advocate a countered position?

[Dantheman]

^^^ It’s Pendantic Stoke Inhibitors of America

Heh.

Are these folks skiing square or counter

This sounds like a fun game. Certainly more fun than whatever the hell this thread is.

Square or counter?

[Mofro261]

I like this explanation of counter/square.

https://www.yourskicoach.com/YourSki...nd_Square.html

When Do We Ski Countered And When Square?

Counter serves a few important purposes. First, it orientates our pelvis towards the outside of the turn. That allows us to angulate and stay balanced on our outside ski, by flexing forward at the waist, which moves our Center of Mass towards our outside ski. That's in contrast to having to flex sideways at the waist to angulate, as you do when skiing square, with your pelvis facing straight ahead. We have a much greater range of motion when flexing forward at the waist than we do flexing sideways. That means counter provides more potential for strong angulation than does a square stance.


Generally, the more we tip our body into a turn, and the higher we tip our skis on edge, the more we have to angulate to stay balanced on our outside ski. This means higher edge angles generally require more counter, so we can achieve the angulation we need to remain optimally balanced.


The second benefit of counter is that it helps to pronate your outside foot. Pronation directs pressure to the big toe side of the foot. That just happens to be the side of the foot that stands above the turning edge of the outside ski. I's exactly where we want the pressure to be. It only takes a small amount of counter to cause pronation.


The final important application of counter is to produce a body position called "anticipated". We're anticipated, when at the end of a turn our body faces straight down the falline, while our skis are still turning across it. Anticipation creates a rotational torque at our waist that serves to twist our skis into the falline to join our body the moment we release our edges and stop turning. It's something called a pivot, an aggressive redirection of the skis down the falline right at the start of the turn, and anticipation is a very effective way of powering it.


So here's the short answer to when to use counter is. Most turns benefit from using a bit of counter to pronate the outside foot. As edge angles grow, typically when carving, more counter is used to allow for more angulation for maintaining lateral balance. And if we want to pivot the start of a turn we use a lot of counter, right at the end of the turn.


Now, about skiing square. This is where the body faces the same direction as the skis, at all times, as the skis go around the turn. When skiing totally square we loose the pronation effect, but there are some benefits to be had in special situations. As I explained above, counter at the end of a turn can impose a twisting force on the ski that can result in a pivot taking place as you begin the new turn. A pivot is a default nemesis of many recreational skiers. A fear of the falline, or just lack of skills, causes them to throw there tails sideways to start their turns. This default pivot is something that needs to be eliminated during the skill building process. Skiing totally square removes any twisting influence on the skis caused by counter, which makes it easier to learn to shed the pivot.


Finally, when steering turns, a square stance allows the legs to function most effectively. When learning to steer, a square stance is a good place to start. The loss of angulating potential associated with a square stance is not an issue, because steering is generally done on low edge angles, where lateral balance is easy to achieve with minor amounts of angulation.


Once a skier becomes more skilled, they will be able to introduce a little counter into their steered turns, regaining the pronation effect, and still be able to eliminate the pivot from the start of their turns.

Mckonkey Turns ftw.

[dcpnz]

Trying to look past differences due to discipline, I guess I fail to see how in your view this is countered

But this is not…..

USSA teaching video of turn phases:

Attachment 432490

I think Mofro has a more detailed version of how proper outside ski edge pressure is connected to a slight counter due to human physiology kind of like I suggested in previous comment - egg/chicken or chicken/egg???


Honestly no idea what my kids coaches are advocating re this issue - and not particularly inclined to ask them cos I don’t want to be viewed as stepping into that role.

[shera]

following

[Dexter Rutecki]

Trying to look past differences due to discipline, I guess I fail to see how in your view this is countered



But this is not…..

OK, this is getting to diminishing returns, but if you look at that sequence (the USSA thing) would you agree that right above the gate everything is going in the same direction? That's what I see. Then in the next frame there is a bit of counter, but it's really just his skis are arcing and turning before his body has (his body is basically the same direction as in the previous frame but all the pressure on the ski is starting to work)--plus he's alongside the gate where you often get momentary counter, which is mostly just the move to avoid plowing through the panel. But again, look at how the hands are driving through the turn, as if he's trying to get his hand to stay in the same position relative to the front of his outside ski throughout the turn. That really shows you he's square and not counter--if you're doing that (and your hand started in that position, in other words your hand started not in a countered position) then you're basically going to maintain the squared up position. Which is what he's doing.

Now compare to the sequence I posted of Felix N skiing SL. Very obvious counter--hands, shoulders, hips facing down the fall line while the skis are going across the hill (quite different than the Hirscher sequence).

I think Mofro has a more detailed version of how proper outside ski edge pressure is connected to a slight counter due to human physiology kind of like I suggested in previous comment - egg/chicken or chicken/egg???


Honestly no idea what my kids coaches are advocating re this issue - and not particularly inclined to ask them cos I don’t want to be viewed as stepping into that role.

You are a perfect ski racing parent (true for any sport, really). I did the same with my daughter when I handed her off to a different coach.

[Dexter Rutecki]

Heh.



This sounds like a fun game. Certainly more fun than whatever the hell this thread is.

Square or counter?

Not a hint of counter. And in this case if anyone says otherwise they need to review board rules re: smoking of the crack. Clearly nothing but proper technique on his mind.

[dcpnz]

would you agree that right above the gate everything is going in the same direction? That's what I see.

Ahh No!
I definitely do not see shoulders hips and skis going in same direction there.
I guess that’s why you’re a coach and I’m not 🤷

But again, look at how the hands are driving through the turn, as if he's trying to get his hand to stay in the same position relative to the front of his outside ski throughout the turn. That really shows you he's square and not counter--if you're doing that (and your hand started in that position, in other words your hand started not in a countered position) then you're basically going to maintain the squared up position. Which is what he's doing.

I can definitely say that in our program coaches do work to some extent on driving inside hand forward. Exactly when in the turn or whether goal is to get square or slightly countered I do not know - I actually assume at developmental levels the exact position is not important but rather a means to counteract a tendency to drop hand back that correlates with rotation and is not good.

[kicool]

Jacket zipper down the hill, looks best in photos and videos and requires the least amount of energy. Unless the terrian is super funky, you follow the skis a bit more to maintain balance going slower. It is difficult to be squared / zipper down hill going slow and navigating funky terrain that may require you to get off the front of the boot. ( blind/narrow spines, blind rolls etc.). To keep squared down the hill you need a platform to push against and create the "counter rotation", this is down with physics and gravity, going faster makes this easier.

Assuming you know how to angulate and can drive a ski.

Good examples are Josh Diaek (nore of a zipper down the hill guy) , Logan Pehota (does both centered and zipper falline very well). Both have racing backgrounds and pretty much charge harder then anyone else out there ATM IMO.

[J. Barron DeJong]

following

For the jazz flute content?

[telefreewasatch]

Shit I'm posting again in the same thread, without an EWG prelude.
Anyone can carve, whether they're square, counter, or backwards.
Specially on the new shaped skis...
Thing is that to generate speed, one needs to stay pretty square throughout the turn.
Period.
It's what racers do.
No one else needs to ski like that cuz they ain't tryin to generate speed...

[Conundrum]

If only there was a way to time fun we could settle this.

[Northway]

pretty square

We’ll that settles it!