Who makes the perfect softshell ski pants??

[concierge]

Why do people like mixed hardshell/softshell touring pants?

For where I do most of my touring (California Sierra Nevada), I either want hardshell (because it’s precipitating) or softshell (because it’s not).

It’s probably a dumb question, but just not sure why you’d want the sweaty part of your lower body under a hardshell while your calves are under the softshell. On the flip side, if it’s precipitating, why don’t you want the hardshell protection for your calves?

My BD Dawn Patrol pants are not the sexiest but damn are they functional and get a ton of use.

If it’s precipitating, I have a pair of Trew Roam (low) bibs. Love those too, except when I have to dump (see: bibs). Stretchy, great pockets.


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I live in Colorado so even when it’s precipitating I can wear softshell, but there are a lot of times I want softshell around my high heat areas (glutes, hamstrings, quads) for breathability, but my knees and lower legs are still in the snow such as digging a pit, breaking trail or boot packing. So I feel like a hybrid pant is the best of both worlds and really doesn’t impact breathability much if the hardshell is minimal.

[skis_the_trees]

When I go running in the rain/sleet/precip I never wear any type of hardshell material. Sure I'm wetted out within a 1/2 mile, but then stay warm by staying active.

When I go ski touring in the rain/sleet/precip (and yes I do sometimes go ski touring in the actual rain), I have found soft shells work better(!). At least they breath and dry a little bit going uphill whereas hard-shells just stay wet underneath all day. Granted, I am mostly vertical focused when ski touring in those conditions and never stop moving excepting fast transitions. If it's raining then by default it's not very cold out, so a 100wt old school fleece without any elastane is all you need going uphill, then a synthetic puff for wet warmth going down. Add a thin softshell with a bit of DWR left for in between conditions.

So yea, 100% softshell pants for touring (unlined, no membrane, no seam tape), and softshell jacket if at all (puff is fine most of the time without a ___shell).

YMMV based on your geography and ski touring style but for me ski touring is more like a mountain run than resort skiing and my clothing reflects that appropriately.

[zion zig zag]

When I go running in the rain/sleet/precip I never wear any type of hardshell material. Sure I'm wetted out within a 1/2 mile, but then stay warm by staying active.

When I go ski touring in the rain/sleet/precip (and yes I do sometimes go ski touring in the actual rain), I have found soft shells work better(!). At least they breath and dry a little bit going uphill whereas hard-shells just stay wet underneath all day. Granted, I am mostly vertical focused when ski touring in those conditions and never stop moving excepting fast transitions. If it's raining then by default it's not very cold out, so a 100wt old school fleece without any elastane is all you need going uphill, then a synthetic puff for wet warmth going down. Add a thin softshell with a bit of DWR left for in between conditions.

So yea, 100% softshell pants for touring (unlined, no membrane, no seam tape), and softshell jacket if at all (puff is fine most of the time without a ___shell).

YMMV based on your geography and ski touring style but for me ski touring is more like a mountain run than resort skiing and my clothing reflects that appropriately.

Your margins are too thin with this approach for my comfort, but we all have our own style I guess.

[wantriot]

Why do people like mixed hardshell/softshell touring pants?

For where I do most of my touring (California Sierra Nevada), I either want hardshell (because it’s precipitating) or softshell (because it’s not).

It’s probably a dumb question, but just not sure why you’d want the sweaty part of your lower body under a hardshell while your calves are under the softshell. On the flip side, if it’s precipitating, why don’t you want the hardshell protection for your calves?

My BD Dawn Patrol pants are not the sexiest but damn are they functional and get a ton of use.

If it’s precipitating, I have a pair of Trew Roam (low) bibs. Love those too, except when I have to dump (see: bibs). Stretchy, great pockets.


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As an inter-mountain northwest skier I could not agree more. For trailhead backcountry skiing I've tried various hybrid pants over the years and have given up on trying to have the best of both worlds. Regardless of brand, material, or design, I am all-in on full softshell (no membrane). The ability to dry on the tour and maintain comfort is exceptional/vastly superior to hybrids of even our modern electro-spun membranes (which are pretty darn incredible for what they are).

For gate access backcountry touring, I could be persuaded there is benifit/upside, but as long as I'm driving to a trailhead and not a lift access area, I'm staying membrane free.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

I’m with you. Unless it’s raining or really wet I’m in soft shell even lift served. Touring, if it’s wet enough for hard shell, I’m taking shelter or turning around.

I think a lot of people haven’t given no membrane soft shell pants a try. They’re so comfortable, cold midwinter I don’t sweat in them and they still block the wind and keep me warm because they’re dry.


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[Tjaardbreeuwer]

Why do people like mixed hardshell/softshell touring pants?

It’s probably a dumb question, but just not sure why you’d want the sweaty part of your lower body under a hardshell while your calves are under the softshell. On the flip side, if it’s precipitating, why don’t you want the hardshell protection for your calves

Two very different designs going on there:
some hybrids have the WPB in the lower legs, some have it on the knees and front of thighs.

I think the idea for the first design is that your lower legs might be in the snow.
So, you get the range of motion and breathability of a mostly softshell pant, but without soaking your lower legs, which aren’t as sweaty anyway. The clue is in the Trailbreaker name of the OR version. @concierge described this.

The idea for the second one is that you get more wind and precip protection where you need it, and more stretch and breatheabilty than full WPB pants would offer.
After all, you don’t get uniformly cold or wet everywhere on your legs when it’s windy or precipitating.
Some softshells (I know some from mammut) also address this by using thicker softshell fabric on the knees and front of the thighs.


Of course, the fact that both of these competing designs exist shows that there is something to be said for full WPB.

I think there is definitely something to be said for softshell on the butt, for range of motion. You also don’t get much precip hitting there because of forward movement and the protection from a backpack.
The same ROM thing could be said for the knees, except that they are very exposed to wet precip, and also knees get cold easily and don’t like it.
Vanity plays into this too. Most people, find preshaped, roomy knees a bit more acceptable than a saggy butt on their pants, so WPB fabric knees are not as much of a down side as WPB butt.

I don’t currently own any hybrid pants, because I need a rare size (32x36), but in general , I’m fan of hybrid garments, mapping each fabric to where it’s strengths are maximized and its downsides minimized. Like front and rear tires on a mtb.

[Tjaardbreeuwer]

We have something coming over at Raide that’s worth checking out. Launching Thursday. Hybrid softshell/hardshell with a super breathable low bib. I felt like the perfect touring pant didn’t exist and I’ve seen this thread going for far too long so I decided to make my ideal pant.


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I love the high waist, low bibs. No gaps, and less bulky overlap from underpants waist band and any extra layers. And they can be loser so no tightness when bending over/sitting down.

[meter-man]

I live in Colorado so even when it’s precipitating I can wear softshell, but there are a lot of times I want softshell around my high heat areas (glutes, hamstrings, quads) for breathability, but my knees and lower legs are still in the snow such as digging a pit, breaking trail or boot packing. So I feel like a hybrid pant is the best of both worlds and really doesn’t impact breathability much if the hardshell is minimal.

That's helpful - thanks. I think if I lived in Colorado (or Montana or another high, dry, cold state), I would probably feel the same.

But in the coastal ranges (Sierra, Cascades), usually it's either wet or it's sunny. And if it's wet, you better be in full hardshell!

Anyway, I look forward to seeing what you've whipped up. Cheers.

Two very different designs going on there:
some hybrids have the WPB in the lower legs, some have it on the knees and front of thighs.

I think the idea for the first design is that your lower legs might be in the snow.
So, you get the range of motion and breathability of a mostly softshell pant, but without soaking your lower legs, which aren’t as sweaty anyway. The clue is in the Trailbreaker name of the OR version. @concierge described this.

The idea for the second one is that you get more wind and precip protection where you need it, and more stretch and breatheabilty than full WPB pants would offer.
After all, you don’t get uniformly cold or wet everywhere on your legs when it’s windy or precipitating.
Some softshells (I know some from mammut) also address this by using thicker softshell fabric on the knees and front of the thighs.


Of course, the fact that both of these competing designs exist shows that there is something to be said for full WPB.

I think there is definitely something to be said for softshell on the butt, for range of motion. You also don’t get much precip hitting there because of forward movement and the protection from a backpack.
The same ROM thing could be said for the knees, except that they are very exposed to wet precip, and also knees get cold easily and don’t like it.
Vanity plays into this too. Most people, find preshaped, roomy knees a bit more acceptable than a saggy butt on their pants, so WPB fabric knees are not as much of a down side as WPB butt.

I don’t currently own any hybrid pants, because I need a rare size (32x36), but in general , I’m fan of hybrid garments, mapping each fabric to where it’s strengths are maximized and its downsides minimized. Like front and rear tires on a mtb.

Good comments - thanks for sharing.

[mr_pretzel]

Your margins are too thin with this approach for my comfort, but we all have our own style I guess.

What do you consider sufficient

[zion zig zag]

From what I can gather neither the BD Dawn Patrol nor the Arc Rush have dedicated beacon pockets?

[zion zig zag]

What do you consider sufficient

Staying warm and dry. And being able to do that even if there is an unplanned stop of movement. I get the fact that you can stay warm if transitions are quick, breaks are short and the weather isn’t terrible. But I want to know that I can survive if the weather turns or I have to sit still for a few hours.

[meter-man]

From what I can gather neither the BD Dawn Patrol nor the Arc Rush have dedicated beacon pockets?

Dunno about the Arc, but tis true about the DP. I had a tailor add a leash - cannot understand why the "Dawn Patrol" would not already have that. Biggest fail on that pant.

[mr_pretzel]

Staying warm and dry. And being able to do that even if there is an unplanned stop of movement. I get the fact that you can stay warm if transitions are quick, breaks are short and the weather isn’t terrible. But I want to know that I can survive if the weather turns or I have to sit still for a few hours.

So what do wear and bring?

[bean]

....details?

[plugboots]

Well, the answer to the question posed at the top of this thread is everybody needs/wants something a little different. I have three pair of soft shells, but my current favorite is the Maloja Khesarm, which I’ve suggested up thread. I also have a 30-year-old pair of Arcteryx that are essentially bellbottoms with a drawstring at the boot that I keep sewing up the cuts and holes on, and I have the Dynafit Mercury, (which I cut the boot snow gaiter out of). I’m not sure why you’d want a snow gator for a BC pant. I tried it for one season with the Mercury and it just keeps getting in the way on transitions. For the one or two days a year that it’s raining, or maybe gonna rain, I just wear my side zip lightweight Gore-Tex. This thread is a fun read though, because nobody seems to like the same thing.

[GoSlowGoFar]

From what I can gather neither the BD Dawn Patrol nor the Arc Rush have dedicated beacon pockets?

The Rush does have a beacon pocket but they call it a key loop for liability purposes I’m guessing.

[whyturn]

The Rush does have a beacon pocket but they call it a key loop for liability purposes I’m guessing.

It’s a small loop on lower thigh I’m impressed with the rush softshell


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[Tjaardbreeuwer]

@plugboots: thanks for mentioning the Maloja’s! Some of the only ones that come in different inseam lengths.
unfortunately they don’t mention what the length of the long or short versions is ;-(

Edit: found it somewhere else:

https://www.bergfreunde.eu/maloja-size-chart/

[muted reborn]

But I want to know that I can survive...

This thread is a fun read though, because nobody seems to like the same thing.

I like surviving too for the record.

8 pages on pants, that's fun!

[bennymac]

Looks like no one makes the perfect soft shell pants / but if you find a pair that is only missing a beacon clip in the thigh pocket you can always have one added in by a gear repair shop yeah?

[GroupTrout]

Raide just dropped their new bib. Softshell/hardshell hybrid.
https://raideresearch.com/collections/snow-apparel

[ASmileyFace]

Raide just dropped their new bib. Softshell/hardshell hybrid.
https://raideresearch.com/collections/snow-apparel

I'll give Kyle and Raide credit... this pant has a lot of really good features. The passthrough booster strap and skimo walk mode access are particularly interesting, along with the obvious mixing of soft and hardshell materials. I would have hoped for one normal style pocket on top of the two big beacon drop pockets near the knee too. At $450 I can't justify these as I need new touring and inbounds bibs this season... but will be curious to hear feedback from folks who buy them.

[meter-man]

I'll give Kyle and Raide credit... this pant has a lot of really good features. The passthrough booster strap and skimo walk mode access are particularly interesting, along with the obvious mixing of soft and hardshell materials. I would have hoped for one normal style pocket on top of the two big beacon drop pockets near the knee too. At $450 I can't justify these as I need new touring and inbounds bibs this season... but will be curious to hear feedback from folks who buy them.

Agreed -- Killer-looking pant! Best of luck, Concierge!!

[Tjaardbreeuwer]

Way to go @Concierge! I especially applaud the fact that you offer different inseams. Features and fabrics all have their pros and cons, and I can be happy with several options, but fit is either good or bad.
I would think you’d have added a zippered expander on the bottom, to tighten up the lower leg for those with smaller boots/open it for wider ones.
Swoshing your pant pegs together each step is annoying, and catching crampon points is dangerous.

[concierge]

Thanks guys! Really happy hear you like them.

The pant does have a zipper in the back at the bottom and a second snap to tighten the hem circumference 1.5”.

Glad you appreciate the inseam lengths. It was super hard to do 3 inseams lengths as a business this early, but fit significantly contributes to performance and it’s the right thing to do.