Is anybody here an AMGA ski guide.....

[raueda1]

....or rock guide or have other involvement with the AMGA? Curious about your perception the AMGA's value and relevance to what you do. The ski guide certification now requires the following:

• The 12-day Ski Guide Course (SGC)
• The 10-day Advanced Ski Guide Course and Aspirant Exam (ASGC/AE)
• The eight-day Ski Guide Exam (SGE)
• You must be certified in an AMGA-approved Level III avalanche course (AIARE, AAI, or CAA Operations Level II)
• You must be certified in CPR and have a minimum 80 hours in WFR

The exam this year is in Cham and costs $2100 + airfare etc. God knows what the courses themselves cost. All in I'd figure that the whole thing would easily cost north of $10,000.

Now, to be clear, I've got nothing against guides being highly qualified. Professionalism is fine too. But, over the last couple years, the AMGA seems to be on the march towards global domination. Their explicit strategy seems to be to persuade land use authorities to mandate that guiding services be AMGA accredited - for their own good, of course, and the good of the participants. I'm not sure how it will shake out with skiing, but for rock climbing one of the future accreditation/reaccreditation requirements will be that all guides be AMGA certified. Looks to me like a perverse side effect will be that this requirement makes it near impossible for new guides to gain the experience necessary to take the courses required to be a guide. It's also worth noting that in the northeast that AMGA accreditation supports a kind of anti-competitive, cartel-like situation with the guiding services at a couple major climbing areas.

I'm curious about reactions to this stuff or related AMGA experiences, both pro and con.

[raueda1]

Disappointing. Hopefully the reason nobody has nothing to say on this is because either . . .

• the topic is too obscure and is kind of stokeless or
• there really aren't any AMGA-types here or
• nobody gives a fuck (same thing as stokeless, I guess).

Hopefully it's not because nobody dares to question the AMGA hegemon or is afraid of possible professional repercussions for doing so. If that's the case then it's even worse than I thought.

[jonesy]

I was approached by an Austrian guide recently offering me a position as a guide. Apparently everything was paid for including travel. I have no idea what is involved nor did I except the offer. It did sound like an adventure I would of taken in another life. Good luck to you.

[_Aaron_]

Im partway through my Ski Cert.

....or rock guide or have other involvement with the AMGA? Curious about your perception the AMGA's value and relevance to what you do. The ski guide certification now requires the following:

• The 12-day Ski Guide Course (SGC)
• The 10-day Advanced Ski Guide Course and Aspirant Exam (ASGC/AE)
• The eight-day Ski Guide Exam (SGE)
• You must be certified in an AMGA-approved Level III avalanche course (AIARE, AAI, or CAA Operations Level II)
• You must be certified in CPR and have a minimum 80 hours in WFR

Dont forget that next winter an alpine skills or rock guide course will be required to enter the ski guide course

The exam this year is in Cham and costs $2100 + airfare etc. God knows what the courses themselves cost. All in I'd figure that the whole thing would easily cost north of $10,000.

Now, to be clear, I've got nothing against guides being highly qualified. Professionalism is fine too. But, over the last couple years, the AMGA seems to be on the march towards global domination. Their explicit strategy seems to be to persuade land use authorities to mandate that guiding services be AMGA accredited - for their own good, of course, and the good of the participants. I'm not sure how it will shake out with skiing, but for rock climbing one of the future accreditation/reaccreditation requirements will be that all guides be AMGA certified. Looks to me like a perverse side effect will be that this requirement makes it near impossible for new guides to gain the experience necessary to take the courses required to be a guide.

Not true. Entry into any of the entry level courses no previous guiding experience is necessary. After entry level courses the idea is that you will be able to shadow, mock guide, or guide (with supervision) to prepare for the advanced courses

It's also worth noting that in the northeast that AMGA accreditation supports a kind of anti-competitive, cartel-like situation with the guiding services at a couple major climbing areas.

I'm curious about reactions to this stuff or related AMGA experiences, both pro and con.

Long story short the idea behind the "AMGA global domination" is multifaceted.

First it sets a skill standard- This not only allows companies to have a better idea of what they are getting when they hire a guide but also companies to have outside guides travel with their clients and work as "Guest guides" in other areas of the country under a different operator/permit area.

Requiring AMGA certification *should* raise guide wages and turn it into a more livable profession. Partly because it will route out the unqualified guides working under the table for cheaper and partly because the education required to guide will not be as cheap as a WFR and a couple avy classes. IMO the jury is still out on if this will happen.

It gives guides and guide companies a group to lobby with land managers and various government agencies (OSHA,etc). There is strength in numbers (and $) and we all know that some group of politicians in DC probably arent the most qualified to decide what should be required to guide. Essentially, if we can self regulate now we should be able to avoid outside regulation later.

If you want to work internationally the AMGA is the only way to legally work in most countries outside the US

Right now there are still growing pains associated with the AMGA. Seems to me first and foremost is how to integrate old guides that have all of the skills needed to work but lack the piece of paper. Second is the mismatch of skills that can be present in courses (due to having separate disciplines, skill levels can vary drastically on lower level courses)

IMO if youre currently guiding and do not think of it as a long term career stay away from the AMGA. The courses aren't cheap and probably wont benefit you much in the immediate future. Just be aware that in the long term you will be passed over for people who have been willing to invest money and time into their education or you will be forced to play certification catch-up to keep your job.

Needless to say, I've drank the AMGA koolaid and although nothing is perfect the AMGA is doing a pretty good job with the hand they have been delt

[adrenalated]

First it sets a skill standard- This not only allows companies to have a better idea of what they are getting when they hire a guide but also companies to have outside guides travel with their clients and work as "Guest guides" in other areas of the country under a different operator/permit area.

I know very little about the guiding world, but I will add that it also allows a prospective client to have a better idea of a guide's knowledge and expertise before hiring them.

[digitaldeath]

i can guide you guys for way less

[homemadesalsa]

As of right now, there is a plan in place for ACCREDITED guiding companies (different than certified, which is for individuals only) to keep on their guides who have been working up to and including 2007. Anyone hired since 2007 has to take a certain number of the basic AMGA courses and to go through training (run by the guide service, usually by the certified guides who work there) every year. They have until 2017 to take those courses or else can't work.

[homemadesalsa]

i can guide you guys for way less

Of course you can. And that works, UNTIL something goes wrong and you don't have insurance, or you get busted by the land manager for not being permitted, any one of a number of scenarios. Shit always goes wrong sooner or later, no matter how good you are.

[irul&ublo]

i can guide you guys for way less

He can show you the highlights at the Mall of America food courts, and get you back alive.

[BFD]

why would the AMGA hold their exam in Cham?

[LiveLarger]

They probably want to set the same standard as UIAGM or the other european sister orgs, which is seriously hard. You wont even be able to start the courses unless you have a lot of experience in alpine climbing, ice climbing, rock climbing, skiing, multi day glacier trips etc.

[digitaldeath]

insurance is a scam

if i guide you you sign waivers, long ones

[hutash]

AMGA is far from world domination, UIAGM already has that. This will just help bring the US into line with Yurp and much of the world. It should allow AMGA guides to guide in Yurp, and Euro guides to guide here, which currently is a bit of a mess.

Is AMGA moving toward all discipline guides, or still going to allow separate certs? Until they do, I don't think they will be accepted as international guides. The euro's has too firm a grip on that.

[Hacksaw]

Most heliski guides in the USA/Alaska are not AMGA ski guides.

[Tryingtostaywarm]

If you're not a Bergführer then you ain't shit.- says Yurp

[PNWbrit]

Digideath is more girl guide than an AMGA one.

[irul&ublo]

Digideath is more girl guide than an AMGA one.

Are you saying he goes drag?

[mtnbiker/boarder]

Im partway through my Ski Cert.
Long story short the idea behind the "AMGA global domination" is multifaceted.

First it sets a skill standard- This not only allows companies to have a better idea of what they are getting when they hire a guide but also companies to have outside guides travel with their clients and work as "Guest guides" in other areas of the country under a different operator/permit area.

Requiring AMGA certification *should* raise guide wages and turn it into a more livable profession. Partly because it will route out the unqualified guides working under the table for cheaper and partly because the education required to guide will not be as cheap as a WFR and a couple avy classes. IMO the jury is still out on if this will happen.

It gives guides and guide companies a group to lobby with land managers and various government agencies (OSHA,etc). There is strength in numbers (and $) and we all know that some group of politicians in DC probably arent the most qualified to decide what should be required to guide. Essentially, if we can self regulate now we should be able to avoid outside regulation later.

If you want to work internationally the AMGA is the only way to legally work in most countries outside the US

Right now there are still growing pains associated with the AMGA. Seems to me first and foremost is how to integrate old guides that have all of the skills needed to work but lack the piece of paper. Second is the mismatch of skills that can be present in courses (due to having separate disciplines, skill levels can vary drastically on lower level courses)

IMO if youre currently guiding and do not think of it as a long term career stay away from the AMGA. The courses aren't cheap and probably wont benefit you much in the immediate future. Just be aware that in the long term you will be passed over for people who have been willing to invest money and time into their education or you will be forced to play certification catch-up to keep your job.

Needless to say, I've drank the AMGA koolaid and although nothing is perfect the AMGA is doing a pretty good job with the hand they have been delt

Best of luck with finishing your cert Aaron . Hope u have had a good winter and all is well. Heading south again this summer????

[JKnight]

Given the relative value of an undergraduate degree, the hours are reasonable and help legitimize this profession. And you show that you can get your ass to Cham and lick the ice axe or whatever is necessary to earn some fucking respect.

From a local perspective here in the Wasatch, accreditation and certification would go a long ways towards convincing land managers and land owners that responsible protocols are in place that minimize liability and encourage more mountain education. Legitimacy is what we need as every joe, dick, and obsessive is looking to capitalize on the new recruits.

[GPP33]

i can guide you guys for way less

Can you guid me around Alta for $37?

If I schedule you for 11:00am but don't show up until 2:00pm will I still have to pay?

Back on topic; I think a universal certification is great provided the org issuing the cert is highly regulated by a representative peer group to make sure corruption doesn't fuck it all up. And it should be a pain in the ass to get certified, keeps the gapers out of the profession.

[Shadam]

wotz da differance between a ski guide and god ???







































god doesn't think he's a ski guide ...

[Hicks]

PM Blondin on this site, he is a certified guide for long and probably can share a lot of first hand insight.

[PNWbrit]

If I schedule you for 11:00am but don't show up until 2:00pm will I still have to pay?
.

Well fucking played sir.

[raueda1]

Now, to be clear, I've got nothing against guides being highly qualified. Professionalism is fine too. But, over the last couple years, the AMGA seems to be on the march towards global domination. Their explicit strategy seems to be to persuade land use authorities to mandate that guiding services be AMGA accredited - for their own good, of course, and the good of the participants. I'm not sure how it will shake out with skiing, but for rock climbing one of the future accreditation/reaccreditation requirements will be that all guides be AMGA certified. Looks to me like a perverse side effect will be that this requirement makes it near impossible for new guides to gain the experience necessary to take the courses required to be a guide.

Not true. Entry into any of the entry level courses no previous guiding experience is necessary. After entry level courses the idea is that you will be able to shadow, mock guide, or guide (with supervision) to prepare for the advanced courses

Their plans certainly don't state it the way I did, but that will absolutely be the real-world impact on some operations, starting with my own. See below.

Im partway through my Ski Cert.
Long story short the idea behind the "AMGA global domination" is multifaceted.

First it sets a skill standard- This not only allows companies to have a better idea of what they are getting when they hire a guide but also companies to have outside guides travel with their clients and work as "Guest guides" in other areas of the country under a different operator/permit area.

Requiring AMGA certification *should* raise guide wages and turn it into a more livable profession. Partly because it will route out the unqualified guides working under the table for cheaper and partly because the education required to guide will not be as cheap as a WFR and a couple avy classes. IMO the jury is still out on if this will happen.

It gives guides and guide companies a group to lobby with land managers and various government agencies (OSHA,etc). There is strength in numbers (and $) and we all know that some group of politicians in DC probably arent the most qualified to decide what should be required to guide. Essentially, if we can self regulate now we should be able to avoid outside regulation later.

If you want to work internationally the AMGA is the only way to legally work in most countries outside the US

Right now there are still growing pains associated with the AMGA. Seems to me first and foremost is how to integrate old guides that have all of the skills needed to work but lack the piece of paper. Second is the mismatch of skills that can be present in courses (due to having separate disciplines, skill levels can vary drastically on lower level courses)

IMO if youre currently guiding and do not think of it as a long term career stay away from the AMGA. The courses aren't cheap and probably wont benefit you much in the immediate future. Just be aware that in the long term you will be passed over for people who have been willing to invest money and time into their education or you will be forced to play certification catch-up to keep your job.

Needless to say, I've drank the AMGA koolaid and although nothing is perfect the AMGA is doing a pretty good job with the hand they have been delt

I've pretty much drunk the koolaid too and agree with all that. It's complex. But I'm nevertheless concerned about how high the future standards will raise the qualifications bar. I think they're going too far and there will be unexpected consequences and serious backlash at some point. I didn't know about that Rock Guide cert would be prerequisite for Ski Guide, that's just incredible. That's saying that to even think about an AMGA ski Guide career that you need to have a climbing resume full of 5.10a trad climbs. That's a helluva lot more than what I'd ever associate with ski mountaineering but maybe I'm uninformed. Maybe half the people here are 10a trad climbers for all I know -- but I doubt it.

Anyway, what their whole scheme doesn't seem to take into account is that "guiding" covers a very wide range of terrain and guiding operations. For an operation that just runs expeditions up Denali it may be just fine. But consider the opposite end of the spectrum, like a small operation catering to beginners on day trips on single pitch terrain, aka top roping. this could be a college Outing Club, or any number of small and limited operations - I'm not talking about AAI or IMG (though they do beginner stuff too).

Now let's say the land management of [insert name of crag, mtn, park, etc] mandates AMGA accreditation of all guiding outfits (not uncommon in the northeast). As it stands, the beginner scenario above would require at least one SPI certified guide and client:staff ratio requirements can be maintained by uncertified trainees (who apply that experience to getting SPI cert). After 2017 this same scenario will require that the lead guide be a certified Rock Guide and the rest all be SPI. And there's no more room for anybody without SPI. Nobody can tell me that there's some necessity that the lead guide be Rock Guide in a single pitch, top rope, day scenario.

If AMGA widely succeeds in getting land managers to mandate that all guiding operations be AMGA accredited, regardless of terrain and scope, it's going to turn the low end and beginner trips into a very unattractive business. There aren't many guide services I know of that would be happy to toss out their beginner/intro trips. Does anybody want, or think we need, the guiding scenario that exists at the Gunks, on a massive nationwide basis? I don't. It's also going to put a lot of the SPI guys that work at the Gunks out of a job if they all need to be Rock Guides. And that would just be the beginning.

[summit]

Is going to cause other issues since the proposed aiare/aaa avalanche education guidelines will make it nearly impossible to take professional track avalanche courses required for AMGA unless you are working as ski patrol digging data pits or working as a ski guide.


There is a fine line between increasing professionalism vs monopolistic profiteering and credential inflation and exclusionary practices.