Home Remodel: Do, Don'ts, Advice

[MontuckyFried]

My .02 is don't tile the walls. It's a very pricey expense that's not necessary. It just makes the bathroom loud and have an echo....... Plus tile is $$$$$$

I'm going to have to agree AND disagree with you there. I recently got done with remodeling one of my bathrooms where I tiled the floors, full tile bath surround, and did tile wainscoting all the way around the rest of the room. Where I agree with you is that IF I actually hired somebody, it would've been hella expensive as I had to straighten out every...freaking...wall. I always noticed that the previous tile was pretty crooked, and I had always chalked it up to a crap install (which it was), but then I learned that it was because the sheetrock was so off, which was because the underlying studs were so warped. I had to fix all of that before putting it back together. That would've been a major hit to the wallet if I had paid somebody to do it.

Now's where I'm going to have to disagree with you, because once it was all said and done, it was totally worth the effort. It looks REALLY beautiful, there's really no noticeable echo, and my walls are totally waterproofed (re: child-proof) since I used Schluter Kerdi-board all the way around with Ditramat on the floors, even waterproofing really well behind every fixture. Perhaps I went a little overboard, but after discovering and taking care of all the mold underlying the bad install the builder's tile layers did, I didn't want to take ANY chances.

Oh, and floor heat? Do it. It's not that expensive any more and it's pretty easy to install. Especially with some of the products like this one: http://www.schluter.com/ditra-heat/
The main thing is that you'll need to run an individual circuit to it. Typically not that big of a deal, but that CAN be one of the more major costs involved if it ends up being a PITA to run that from your circuit breaker panel to the bathroom.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Where to start? Firstly, "value" is personal. Mad props to all the architects, kitchen designers, bags-off generals and others who don't get there fingers dirty while making a $130K kitchen happen. I'm simply trying to offer some pointer to those with interest in keeping the costs down and doing some of those tasks themselves.

Tile Install - probably one of the biggest hack trades where it is very easy to do the wrong thing and have it look good when you are done....for about 5 minutes. Ask about prep, underlayments, thinsets etc. If you search I'm pretty sure us tile dorks have been over this multple times.
Tile Purchasing - Lowes & HD suck for tile and flooring. There prices are OK but there tile sucks. Most of their stuff does not pass for 1st quality, that is why you see crayon marks all over the tile, it's a reject. Floor & Decor is very good for the customer direct, one-price-for everyone, tile in stock type of place.

With all finish materials, you need to understand the wholesale pricing model and how places sell customer direct. For example, DalTile sells more tile that anyone in the metro. As a customer, you can walk in the front door of their, "design center" and pay full retail as a consumer. As a contractor (who does $5-10K annually with them), I get 30-40% if retail. Point being, when shopping, tell the retailer you are "working with a contractor" and if they offer a contractor discount. Then have your contractor call for the price.

If you contractor is supplying the materials, which they should if it is price beneficial to you, make sure you understand the markup. If they get bent about the question, find another contractor. Many people will disagree but I believe the customer has a right to understand where the contractor is making there money.

I see jobs where the tile goes DalTile>Local Tile Retailer>Interior Designer>General Contractor and gets marked up every step along the way including the GC charging his cost plus margin on top of the tile price. This is how you get a $130K kitchen.

Again, I'm a full disclosure contractor. Other people have different business philosophies.

[Danno]

Thanks Foggy.

Other good places to go for other things, like bathtubs, toilets, fixtures, etc?

[Foggy_Goggles]

Your plumber should supply all the plumbing trim. My plumber pretty much price matches online and gets much better service than you can at the 800 number. Also, then the plumber is on the hook to make sure everything is right and on the job at the right time. Price shop on faucetsdirect.com, houzz.com, build.com etc. I'm not sure where you are at with the contractor selection process but the path I would take is as follows:

1. Develop a finish schedule starting with most permanent and expensive (cabinets/vanities & countertop)
2. Ask the contractor who should supply everything and how he will price/markup everything.
3. Do your own price checking.

The part that everyone tends to miss is that you really need to mentally go through the whole project before you even start or select a GC.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Oh..ProSource is a great place to see finish products all in the same place. There business model really helps you understand how contractor>customer pricing works.

[Mazderati]

Companies like DirectBuy are presented as builder supply clubs for consumers; pay a fee and get price breaks on supplies. Guy I used to work with built a home using a similar place and said he saved a good chunk. There would obviously be a necessary minimum purchase amount to make the fee worth it. May be something to check into.

[Danno]

Thing is, we need to see shit in person. Since we're the ones "designing" this and are fairly new to it all, it's hard to order tubs and faucets and what not online (or have the contractor order) without getting to see a bunch of stuff in person. Floor and Decor was a great start in the flooring dept, but need to look for the other stuff to at least get a good sense of what we want, to then shop online.

[Mazderati]

You're in trouble if Westminster is too far to drive.

[::: :::]

I see jobs where the tile goes DalTile>Local Tile Retailer>Interior Designer>General Contractor and gets marked up every step along the way including the GC charging his cost plus margin on top of the tile price. This is how you get a $130K kitchen.

Foggy, agreed on all your thoughts...I will add only that, in my personal case, I'm not in that income stream at all. Sometimes for certain clients, we will use our industry pricing to help customers buy direct without any markup from us. I get paid for my service, not on product. So, my point being that $130k kitchens happen in other project strategies too..and that price point is not an outlier. And, I understand that Danno may not be looking for a full-service project, but I think it's helpful to show that side of the industry (the non-diy) so that customers understand that there's a bunch of real work there, not just markups for no reason.

Honestly, I don't like being in the middle of the product acquisitions. The GC & subs can own the logistics of making sure all the specialty fittings work together and own the extra trips back/forth to the plumbing supply shop and warrantee the whole shebang. They deserve the markup to make that happen. We try to specify the job and then let the GC take ownership for making it happen. We follow through with some oversight during construction to watch design intent & help decision-making with discovered conditions.

Re: labor prices. We have found that we've had a labor shortage in the building world because tradespeople have moved on to other markets when we were in mini-depression (either leaving the trade or the area). The guys who survived are the ones who provided better service, and they are all busier now and hesitant to staff up in case the market stalls. So, prices are up again in the trades and schedules are full year round.



That said, there are different levels of service in the building world, and customers owe it to themselves to understand what exactly they are getting when they eyeball that last line in a bid. Well before the bid shows up, a good customer will have done enough research to understand the portfolio of each bidder and figure out their communication and management styles, as well as the pricing strategy (cost plus, fixed, etc).

Just because GC #1 is $X and GC #2 is $X +20% doesn't mean much until you understand what they are providing for that fee. It's a tossup as to which value is better if you don't understand the results.

[Danno]

You're in trouble if Westminster is too far to drive.

Westminster is absolutely not, it's close. But Direct Buy charges a few thousand for a membership, from what I have read online; I don't think we'll be shopping there.

[MontuckyFried]

Thing is, we need to see shit in person. Since we're the ones "designing" this and are fairly new to it all, it's hard to order tubs and faucets and what not online (or have the contractor order) without getting to see a bunch of stuff in person. Floor and Decor was a great start in the flooring dept, but need to look for the other stuff to at least get a good sense of what we want, to then shop online.

That's one of the most difficult parts of the entire process. Especially here in Montana, our options are really, really limited as far as what we can see in person. I HAAAATE special ordering stuff, but sadly that's about our only option for many things such as tubs and such. We had to go through not just 2, not just 3, but FOUR freaking bathtubs to finally get one that didn't come in damaged. The first one took over a month and a half to arrive. I was so pissed when that store couldn't even find the damn thing to begin with, with me having to track it down with the shipping company myself, and it was just stuck in a trailer on a back lot in town for weeks apparently...just for me to find out it was jacked up. Was so pissed, I went to a different store, and they got it in quicker, but it also came in damaged. When tub #3 also came in bad, then I realized it was a manufacturer's issue and we went with a different model all together. Took like 3 months to finally get a tub, which really pushed everything back. Damn you, Bozeman! All your stores suck, with their complete lack of inventory and/or total lack of giving a crap.

[Danno]

That said, there are different levels of service in the building world, and customers owe it to themselves to understand what exactly they are getting when they eyeball that last line in a bid. Well before the bid shows up, a good customer will have done enough research to understand the portfolio of each bidder and figure out their communication and management styles, as well as the pricing strategy (cost plus, fixed, etc).

Just because GC #1 is $X and GC #2 is $X +20% doesn't mean much until you understand what they are providing for that fee. It's a tossup as to which value is better if you don't understand the results.

You know, I get that, but you guys have to realize that you're in the industry. I have a full time job, and a kid, and am trying to educate myself as much as possible, but am not an expert, not sure I will ever be a "good customer" in that respect. In an ideal world, I would have the money to pay the pricey guy to talk to us, design everything, and just bill us. But in ideal world I would also be heli-skiing for a week in British Columbia every year. Instead, I'm trying to navigate the cheaper contractor, where I design everything, and may or may not be buying all the stuff (at minimum, will have to be selecting everything). It's fucking complicated.

[MontuckyFried]

You know, I get that, but you guys have to realize that you're in the industry. I have a full time job, and a kid, and am trying to educate myself as much as possible, but am not an expert, not sure I will ever be a "good customer" in that respect.

And if you WERE an expert, you wouldn't be hiring a contractor in the first place, amiright? Seriously. I'm not sure what some of the comments in here were about the clients having to be so well educated. If I knew all the ins and outs of the products and procedures, I'd be doing the project myself. That's why sometimes we want some good help, for the guidance. That's certainly worth its premium, but some customers DO need their hand held, and that should be perfectly ok.

Now, if we're talking about clueless customers getting mad about a reasonable bid, then yeah, they might need a bit of an "education." Otherwise, there's absolutely nothing wrong with guiding clients, helping them pick stuff out, telling them how it's all gonna go down, etc.

[Foggy_Goggles]

I have a full time job, and a kid, and am trying to educate myself as much as possible...It's fucking complicated.

It is really only complicated if a. you let the process overwhelm you and b. get bogged down in the minutia before you even get started.

Perhaps, I don't make it clear. You need to figure out a pro-forma/hypothetical/first draft scope of work and finish schedule. From there, you should be able price the project and adjust to your budget as needed. If you haven't even started and you are asking where to see a kitchen faucet in person you are doing it wrong. Hows that Excel spreadsheet coming along?

Here is your homework, this should take you are your wife about 1-2hrs. depending on whether you have good focus or are totally fucking scrambled.

A. Make a best guest about what you need for plumbing fixtures. Off the top of my head you need:

Kitchen - sink, faucet, disposal

Bath 1 - tub or shower base, tub/shower faucet, sink, sink faucet

Bath 2 - see bath one

oh, maybe a couple of shitters. I suggest comfort height elongated bowl.

If needed, maybe make a column in your spreadsheet for budget/midgrade/top end? If you have any questions, post them here and I'll try and answer. If it's too daunting, just stick to Delta. What kind of "education" is needed for this task?

[::: :::]

Danno, I am not trying to victim blame, and I apologize if that's how it's coming off. Just a long winded way of trying to bring some information about the field I happen to be in.

[Danno]

The contractor we chose for the bathrooms actually gave us a good spreadsheet as part of their quote, that indicated what materials costs were variable (ie determined by us). And we do have a very good sense of the things we need to buy.

What kind of "education" is needed for this task?

At the moment, we just need to see stuff, to get our hands on stuff, to figure out what we want. Browsing online is just not the same. Which is why I was asking if there were particular places to go (like Floor and Decor for tile) that will give us some sense of what the options are and what they cost. Ideally a place that we buy from, but even if not, at least lets us know what we should be looking for online.

[Danno]

Danno, I am not trying to victim blame, and I apologize if that's how it's coming off. Just a long winded way of trying to bring some information about the field I happen to be in.

Oh, I get it. And you guys are super helpful, and I am appreciative of it. And hope that this thread is helping others too. It's just that I find it overwhelming at times, from the design part of it to the "shopping" part of it to the contracts part of it. And to those who think that because I'm a lawyer I should understand the contracts part, it's like thinking a podiatrist should understand brain tumors because they're a "doctor".

[::: :::]

Oh, I get it. And you guys are super helpful, and I am appreciative of it. And hope that this thread is helping others too. It's just that I find it overwhelming at times, from the design part of it to the "shopping" part of it to the contracts part of it. And to those who think that because I'm a lawyer I should understand the contracts part, it's like thinking a podiatrist should understand brain tumors because they're a "doctor".

any time i've bumped into a lawyer questioning the construction law contracts, i always ask if they are in the field because it's its own world

[Dromond]

We put the Suntouch heated floor element under mosaic hex tile in a small bathroom. The one part that is a pain is getting the floor flat for tiles after installing the heating element. We used self-level compound over it and that is really hard to work with and get to actually be flat as it sets up super fast. Otherwise, the heated floor is totally worth it IMHO.

[NmbrdDays]

I'm going to have to agree AND disagree with you there. I recently got done with remodeling one of my bathrooms where I tiled the floors, full tile bath surround, and did tile wainscoting all the way around the rest of the room. Where I agree with you is that IF I actually hired somebody, it would've been hella expensive as I had to straighten out every...freaking...wall. I always noticed that the previous tile was pretty crooked, and I had always chalked it up to a crap install (which it was), but then I learned that it was because the sheetrock was so off, which was because the underlying studs were so warped. I had to fix all of that before putting it back together. That would've been a major hit to the wallet if I had paid somebody to do it.

Now's where I'm going to have to disagree with you, because once it was all said and done, it was totally worth the effort. It looks REALLY beautiful, there's really no noticeable echo, and my walls are totally waterproofed (re: child-proof) since I used Schluter Kerdi-board all the way around with Ditramat on the floors, even waterproofing really well behind every fixture. Perhaps I went a little overboard, but after discovering and taking care of all the mold underlying the bad install the builder's tile layers did, I didn't want to take ANY chances.

Oh, and floor heat? Do it. It's not that expensive any more and it's pretty easy to install. Especially with some of the products like this one: http://www.schluter.com/ditra-heat/
The main thing is that you'll need to run an individual circuit to it. Typically not that big of a deal, but that CAN be one of the more major costs involved if it ends up being a PITA to run that from your circuit breaker panel to the bathroom.

Yeah tile in the walls may be nice. I have it on mine and I fucking hate it. A few spots aren't level, I have such a crazy echo, it's just so fucking loud when the water runs. Forget it if I want to play music, everyone is the subjected to what I'm listening too. Hey, to each his own!

[Danno]

oh, and we won't be tiling walls, other than the bath/shower. Tile on floors, around bath/shower, and a vanity backsplash.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Your contractor should then be telling you which supply houses he/his plumber uses and possibly even giving you the name of there sales person. You can walk-in (appointment is better) and say, "I'm Danno, this is my shorty, we are working with XYZ contactor".

I use http://martzsupply.com/locations/showroom/

and https://www.ferguson.com/content/showrooms

For the expenses that are "variable" did he give you an allowance or range? Did he provide any guidance on what may be options within you budget? Because, if not, that "Quote" is BS and expect some major changes once you select your finish materials. Here are two easy examples:

1. Shower tile -6x6 ceramic straight lay vs. marble in a pinwheel pattern set on a diagonal with a glass deco band. They don't cost the same to install. If the install cost is "fixed" problems may arise.

2. Shower Trim - Delta Lahara suite vs. Hansghroe suite with a hand shower and the valve controls on the opposite wall. One rough-in takes about a hour. The other requires about 3 times that plus you'll have to re-drywall the ceiling if the backside of the bathroom is on an exterior wall.


Point being, heads up for "fixed" costs before the finish schedule is complete because sometimes one drives the other. If your contractor is not providing any direction and you wife chooses a furniture style vanity with a vessel sink and a wall mount faucet when your exisiting supply and waste lines are coming through the floor Danno ain't gonna get laid in a month of Sundays once you see the plumbers bill

[Foggy_Goggles]

We put the Suntouch heated floor element under mosaic hex tile in a small bathroom. The one part that is a pain is getting the floor flat for tiles after installing the heating element. We used self-level compound over it and that is really hard to work with and get to actually be flat as it sets up super fast. Otherwise, the heated floor is totally worth it IMHO.

DITRA-HEAT = gamechanger.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Sound insulate the bathroom walls...duh.

[Dromond]

DITRA-HEAT = gamechanger.

I looked at that. Looks like a great alternative but as I remember you can't use the really small tiles that I wanted. I used some other Schluter products that I found to be good but super over priced and annoying to get if you aren't a contractor.