Which softshell material?

[neck beard]

Which material, or brand, provides a softshell which is most of all windproof, then very breathable at the expense of being not very waterproof?

[butterscotch]

gore windstopper.

[bbense]

Which material, or brand, provides a softshell which is most of all windproof, then very breathable at the expense of being not very waterproof?

Marmot DriClime windshirt.

If you want something with less insulation, then Pertex might fit the bill. Although there seem to be a bunch of different pertex fabrics out there now.

[Dry]

Why settle for any thing 2nd best? Seriously. Anything made of •Polartec Power Shield Pro fabric.

Nothing else like it on the market...nothing.

[bean]

gore windstopper.

Not a softshell material.

[GeezerSteve]

Begs the definition of "soft shell." Lots of Windstopper stuff is marketed as "soft shell."

[Lindahl]

I prefer stretch-woven softshells for touring (and hardshells for most resort days). Most companies make proprietary ones. Schoeller is the expensive brand name - few companies pay for it these days. Look for nylon/polyester/spandex blends. Look at the description of the fabric to understand how much warmth it will add (look at fabric weight and any fleece backings). I prefer as lightweight as possible, since you can always add baselayers if it's cold. My favorite is the Outdoor Research Ferrosi. Though, for pants, on all but the warmest spring/summer days, I prefer the Outdoor Research Cirque, for durability reasons.

Anything with Marmot M3 is usually good (i.e. Marmot Tempo). Arc'Teryx Gamma LT is good, as is Patagonia Simple Guide. The North Face also has some good ones, as well, but I'm not sure what they're called anymore. I do the breath test. If I can breath through the fabric, feeling some strong resistance, but not enough to feel a shortness of breath, then it's thumbs up for me. I'm looking for something more breathable than the Patagonia Houdini, for example (and something a LOT more breathable than the Marmot Driclime). Get the brand that fits the best.

Why settle for any thing 2nd best? Seriously. Anything made of •Polartec Power Shield Pro fabric.

Nothing else like it on the market...nothing.

For reference, Polartec Power Shield Pro is 2 CFM, Powershield is 5 CFM, most stretch-wovens are 10-15 CFM. The best windshirts are 5 CFM, most are 2 CFM and the worst are ~0 CFM. Power Shield garments have membranes, but the membranes are perforated. You're right, no one else makes anything like it. They are more weather resistant, as a result, but don't breath anywhere near as well as a stretch-woven softshell.

I prefer stretch-wovens for jackets, adding a synthetic jacket when I need more warmth/blockage. I like Powershield fabrics for pants when touring in nasty weather. I don't like it for jackets. For pants, it's usually not breathable enough for sunny days, or moderate temperatures. For jackets, it's usually not breathable enough unless the weather is REALLY bad. However, on those days, stretch-wovens also work just fine, so why own two softshells?

If I was Alpine Climbing - i.e. not working as hard, then Powershield might work, but for ski touring, it just doesn't work for me on the up. Too sweaty/non-breathable.

[BackcountryMike]

I like the schoeller fabric used by Mammut for their pants and jackets. I end up using them for winter and spring ski touring and for summer mountaineering.

[bbense]

I like the schoeller fabric used by Mammut for their pants and jackets. I end up using them for winter and spring ski touring and for summer mountaineering.

Me too, but the OP is kinda asking for something both

a) impossible

b) different from a "real" soft shell garment.

If it's windproof, it won't be anywhere near as breathable as most "soft shell" fabrics. FWIW, soft shell has been so over-used by marketers that it is essentially meaningless. All it really means these days is "not backed by Goretex Waterproof warranty".

I said Dri-Clime windshirt because I think everybody should own one. Relatively cheap, incredibly versatile and works really well as a wind barrier/light insulation layer under more robust softshells like the Schoeller Dryskin jackets or a full on goretex jacket.

[neck beard]

Thanks for all the suggestions. Recently I have been researching the design features I want (big pockets, pit zips etc) and thought I'd try looking at the problem from a technical material performance pov instead.

I have a very well used Mammut windshell with Gore windstopper. It worked well, however being objective, it didn't breath so good at all when under an outer shell.

I dropped 'waterproof' to reduce the impossibility of my question.

I guess what I want is:

- comfortable 'softshell' jacket which breathes well and blocks wind. Worn all the time as an outer layer when touring except when it is very windy, colder or snowing hard. It has to breath well when worn under a hardshell. No insulation needed at all. Mild maritime climate.


<Marmott>
I have a non-shell Marmott jacket from about 7 years ago which was sold as a re-release of their most popular jacket. It has thin insulation and is baggy and cheap in design. It doesn't breath, is not windprooof at all, certainly not waterproof. I have zero use for it other than walking the dog. It's intended mountain use mystifies me. Along with some similar era Marmott Precip material shells with a plastic feel to them, which leak... my house does not use Marmott any more, I don't even visit their site in my searches. Perhaps they have improved?

[XXX-er]

I do the breath test. If I can breath through the fabric, feeling some resistance, but not enough to feel a shortness of breath, then it's thumbs up for me.

I just tried this with my windstopper arcterxy fury pants and they are hard to breath thru, I also tried it with my windstopper O2 jacket and they are much easier to breath thru

[brice618]

It has to breath well when worn under a hardshell.

Sounds like you need a good wool tech shirt or fleece of some sort. My favorite is Melanzana. Their soft shell could fit this bill too. It's not particularly wind proof, but it is a good balance between water/wind/warm.

http://www.melanzana.com

Their "hardface" is what most would consider a soft shell. Actually they say its a hybrid between fleece and soft shell, which is probably more apt, and sounds close to what you're looking for.

[neck beard]

I thought about things like that for their breathable qualities, but it needs to be a good windblocker, and fleeces/wools aren't (in my experience). Plus snow precip sticks to it. The hardface material is better, but has insulation. I don't want any at all, not even the slightest fleecy feel inside, which also rules out fleeces and wools.

[brice618]

So basically you want a light hard shell? This has a bit of fleece, but not much and not in bad places.

http://www.outdoorresearch.com/en/me...ge-jacket.html

A buddy had this and it was pretty sweet I thought. I have a marmot version and it is nice, but not as weather proof.

[Island Bay]

Ha, I was just about to recommend the OR Centrifuge.

I've had mine for a year now, and I love it. I bike in mine, ski on non-windy days, chop wood, run on cold winter mornings, sift about at home, walk the hound. Light precip is ok, but you don't want to be caught out in wet snow or real rain.

It is very versatile and comfy, and it still looks good; slight pilling on the back of the sleeves. Zipper tabs are minuscule, but 2mm cordelette and some thick thread will fix that.

FWIW, I'm 6'1 x 170 and mine is an M. Perfect/slim fit with a thin base layer. Will get another one in L if on sale for more layering options, and in order to not wear the other one out.

So basically you want a light hard shell? This has a bit of fleece, but not much and not in bad places.

http://www.outdoorresearch.com/en/me...ge-jacket.html

A buddy had this and it was pretty sweet I thought. I have a marmot version and it is nice, but not as weather proof.

[neck beard]

So basically you want a light hard shell? This has a bit of fleece, but not much and not in bad places.

http://www.outdoorresearch.com/en/me...ge-jacket.html

A buddy had this and it was pretty sweet I thought. I have a marmot version and it is nice, but not as weather proof.

I guess so. Basically, a soft to the touch flexible breathable less weather resistant "hard: shell. Worn as an exterior most of the time except when weather worsens.

Even if I find the appropriate material, I then need to find the color/pocket/pit zip specs I'm after.

I've noted down the OR jacket, thanks guys. Plus the other suggestions.

[Lindahl]

I said Dri-Clime windshirt because I think everybody should own one. Relatively cheap, incredibly versatile and works really well as a wind barrier/light insulation layer under more robust softshells like the Schoeller Dryskin jackets or a full on goretex jacket.

What do you feel the advantage of the Driclime is, over something like the Houdini? For that sort of garment, I'd rather have the Houdini, personally - packable size/weight being one of the major pros.

[Lindahl]

Thanks for all the suggestions. Recently I have been researching the design features I want (big pockets, pit zips etc) and thought I'd try looking at the problem from a technical material performance pov instead.

I have a very well used Mammut windshell with Gore windstopper. It worked well, however being objective, it didn't breath so good at all when under an outer shell.

I dropped 'waterproof' to reduce the impossibility of my question.

I guess what I want is:

- comfortable 'softshell' jacket which breathes well and blocks wind. Worn all the time as an outer layer when touring except when it is very windy, colder or snowing hard. It has to breath well when worn under a hardshell. No insulation needed at all. Mild maritime climate.

IMO, what you're describing is a stretch-woven softshell. It's not windproof, but you don't want windproof for this sort of thing. You want wind resistant. Anything windproof will not breath well enough - just a fact of life. I've used my softshells in a blizzard in -10F degree temperatures without problems. Yeah, you feel the wind through it, but when you're working hard, that's a good thing, not a bad thing - it keeps you from overheating, and immediately dries any sweat. You want something to block just ENOUGH wind for you to not get too chilled. This sort of softshell basically cuts breezes and light winds to nothing, and cuts alpine gusts to a breeze. Everyone says they want something windproof, and then they try a stretch-woven softshell and never look back.

Don't worry about pitzips either. They don't make sense on this kind of a garment (no one has them anyway), because you want something that actually breaths all over (arms, back, neck, torso, abdomen, etc.). Honestly, I'm sure you're feeling a bit sketpical, but if you haven't tried one yet, then you don't actually know what you want.

I don't bother with a hardshell jacket when touring anymore, either. If it's cold, a lightweight synthetic puffy goes on when I stop moving. You get to bring one less layer: bonus! I'd love to try an Atom LT for this layer, as I think it'd be PERFECT. However, those things are friggin expensive, and I already own a few synthetic puffies.

I have a non-shell Marmott jacket from about 7 years ago which was sold as a re-release of their most popular jacket. It has thin insulation and is baggy and cheap in design. It doesn't breath, is not windprooof at all, certainly not waterproof. I have zero use for it other than walking the dog. It's intended mountain use mystifies me. Along with some similar era Marmott Precip material shells with a plastic feel to them, which leak... my house does not use Marmott any more, I don't even visit their site in my searches. Perhaps they have improved?

I've tested over 20 different softshell jackets from various manufacturers (thanks bc.com!). Marmot has one of the most extensive list of softshell options on the market. I'd suggest looking at them again. I have the Marmot Tempo Hoody and the Outdoor Research Ferrosi, and the materials are VERY similar - the Marmot is a tiny bit thicker and more durable. I think the difference is double-weave versus single-weave. The Marmot Tempo material is almost identical to the Outdoor Research Cirque material, IMO. If I had to keep one, it'd be a tough call. I like how packable the Ferrosi is for summer skiing. I also like it's very trim fit, and the interior mesh drop pockets (for keeping skinning gloves warm/dry). However, the hood is a tight fit and won't fit over any helmet. I'd probably keep just the Ferrosi though.

I also own the North Face Nimble jacket, which is another great stretch-woven softshell jacket. I use it around town for fall and spring, day hikes on really cold fall/spring days, as well as mountain biking in colder weather. On descent, I've been caught in a wet snow, rain, hail and thunderstorm in 35 degree weather and it kept me warm enough to get back to the car, even though I was drenched, which is saying A LOT for something so thin (my hands and legs, however, were starting to go numb).

One thing I find interesting about softshells, is that even though it might be wet enough for them to get soaked, as long as you're moving and generating your own heat, they'll bake dry really easily. So much so, that it can be a pretty wet snowstorm, and the jacket will mostly be dry, just from your body's heat pushing out the moisture.

[neck beard]

Thanks for your stretch-woven info, lots of it.

I almost entirely agree about not needing a shell jacket in winter. If it starts getting nasty, I just put my belay jacket on. However there are some warm snowy humid damp days where the extra insulation is the last thing I need when fat snowflakes are wetting me though my softshell when ascending in a glass-house storm. Sweating on the inside + melting flakes on the outside is not nice. I also start and end my day with my belay jacket on. And I ski in it if I'm cold, or waiting for people to manage terrain/group or sweaty from the hike. So yeah, seldom do I really need a shell. They are expensive and wear out and I think people wear them mostly as a fashion/image item. It is important to look like a pro skier after all.

Don't worry about pitzips either. They don't make sense on this kind of a garment (no one has them anyway)

No man, I need them and want them. I know the difference. I use them very frequently in winter and spring. Nothing lets cool air breeze across a hot core like pit zips. For me, it is instant aircon to avoid sweating during high exertion when the sun suddenly comes out, or the wind stops etc. This is different to breathability of the overall jacket. Same reason I like huge pockets: to quickly take of hat/gloves and stuff them in [without blowing out the zip ends and small opening zippers]. Different to breathability, it is on the fly temperature management.

Narrona has pit zips.

Will look at Marmott again. They have a lot. Edit: but no pit zips....

[Dry]

Which material, or brand, provides a softshell which is most of all windproof, then very breathable at the expense of being not very waterproof?

"For reference, Polartec Power Shield Pro is 2 CFM, Powershield is 5 CFM". Numbers are nice, field experience much better imo. I've used all sorts of materials, garments and brands. More than most I suspect doing field testing and reviews of what is currently available. Polartec Power Shield Pro and Powershield are exceptional fabrics and come in different laminates. So I might find your numbers suspect. I have used one or the other verison for pants the last three winters. Never once in a hard shell pant and was more than satisfied withthe results of the 2 versions of Polartec Power Shield.

OP didn't ask for anything more than the best "material, brand" of softshell. From my own perspective, and nothing more than actual field use Polartec Power Shield Pro and Powershield are exceptional fabrics. Some of th differing Neoshell laminates are very good as well but IMO more a hard shell fabric than a soft shell....although that defination obviously overlaps these days.

[Lindahl]

I'm sitting here 1 week post-ACL surgery, so I have way too much time on my hands right now.

No man, I need them and want them. I know the difference. I use them very frequently in winter and spring. Nothing lets cool air breeze across a hot core like pit zips. For me, it is instant aircon to avoid sweating during high exertion when the sun suddenly comes out, or the wind stops etc. This is different to breathability of the overall jacket. Same reason I like huge pockets: to quickly take of hat/gloves and stuff them in [without blowing out the zip ends and small opening zippers]. Different to breathability, it is on the fly temperature management.

If you haven't used a stretch-woven softshell before, then maybe you should try one before making that claim. You'll be surprised. The ONLY, and I mean absolutely ONLY, stretch-woven softshell on the market that has pit-zips is a custom one from BeyondFleece.com. There's a very good reason for that. Norrona softshells, at least the ones I'm familiar with, use Gore Windstopper, which means they aren't breathable, which means they pretty much HAVE to have pit-zips. If you REALLY want pitzips, most seamstresses around here can add them to a jacket for about $25-$40. I've had it done to lightweight alpine climbing hardshells.

"For reference, Polartec Power Shield Pro is 2 CFM, Powershield is 5 CFM". Numbers are nice, field experience much better imo. I've used all sorts of materials, garments and brands. More than most I suspect doing field testing and reviews of what is currently available. Polartec Power Shield Pro and Powershield are exceptional fabrics and come in different laminates. So I might find your numbers suspect. I have used one or the other verison for pants the last three winters. Never once in a hard shell pant and was more than satisfied withthe results of the 2 versions of Polartec Power Shield.

OP didn't ask for anything more than the best "material, brand" of softshell. From my own perspective, and nothing more than actual field use Polartec Power Shield Pro and Powershield are exceptional fabrics. Some of th differing Neoshell laminates are very good as well but IMO more a hard shell fabric than a soft shell....although that defination obviously overlaps these days.

Out of curiousity, what was the most recent stretch-woven uninsulated softshell jacket you've tried, and when did you try it?

The numbers come straight from Polartec (and from my less-than-scientific breath test). The Powershield and Powershield Pro membranes refers to the size and number of perforations in a completely waterproof/windproof membrane. While face fabrics can slightly alter the overall breathability, the formula for combining CFM is: 1/(1/CFM1 + 1/CFM2) - which means the lowest CFM is pretty close to the resultant CFM. Since such fabrics are ALWAYS bonded to stretch-woven face fabrics, which tend to have pretty identical CFMs across the board (10-15 CFM), then the resultant CFM is usually pretty similar across the board. CFM numbers are useful because you can use them to compare a garment you have NO field experience with, to a garment you DO have field experience with (the same reason why it's useful to know how many g/m^2 of Primaloft One is used in a synthetic insulated garment). As a manufacturer, one of the major plusses of using Powershield/Powershield Pro, is that the end result of the garment is a predictable known quantity that the customer can count on.

The breath test I mentioned can also give you a good guesstimate of the CFM. 2 CFM is pretty much impossible to breath through. 5 CFM is very hard to breath through. You can breath through 10-15+ CFM, but there is a notable resistance. Once you get to around 30-40 CFM, it's hard to detect any resistance. I have a lot of experience with various fabrics and using the breath test, and correlating that to how it performs in the field. Like I said, I've personally tested around 20 different softshells, and about 8 different windshirts (most were <2 CFM, the Stoic Wraith and Patagonia Houdini were 5 CFM - and are BY FAR the best windshirts on the market, the Stoic being my favorite due to cut, it's 2.1oz weight, breathability, and packing into it's own pocket).

Finally, with all due respect, 1) your field experience is almost all as an Alpine Climber, 2) you mention your field experience is only with pants(?). My experience with Powershield in pants is also positive. They make good cold weather pants, but are not as versatile when it comes to warmer days. On the other hand, I've found stretch-woven pants to work well for both warm and cold days, so I prefer those as a "quiver-of-one". However, if I were given a pair, or found a pair for the right price/fit/color, I'd probably own a pair of Powershield pants too. When it comes to jackets, however, under most conditions in my field experience, Powershield is not breathable enough for ski touring (especially in Maritime climates, which tend to be warmer). There is no comparison between those fabrics and stretch-wovens and their utility to a backcountry skier. It IS a good RESORT softshell jacket, however, and is definitely breathable enough for most conditions at the resort. In fact, I'd almost like to own one, just for that reason alone.

Paradoxically, I seem to remember reading on your blog about disliking Powershield for most conditions (specifically Gamma MX) - and that it was too warm? I suppose you could have been referring to a fleece backing, but, my guess is that it was too warm because it doesn't breath very well.

[neck beard]

If you haven't used a stretch-woven softshell before, then maybe you should try one before making that claim. You'll be surprised.

Perhaps I will be

But I still differentiate between the benefits of breathable and the benefits of on-the-fly rapid mass-ventilation of unwanted heat and intake of moving cool air, aka, pit zips.

The ONLY, and I mean absolutely ONLY, stretch-woven softshell on the market that has pit-zips is a custom one from BeyondFleece.com. There's a very good reason for that. Norrona softshells, at least the ones I'm familiar with, use Gore Windstopper, which means they aren't breathable, which means they pretty much HAVE to have pit-zips.

What the industry is prepared to produce, and what I need, generally differ. Most jackets have pockets which sit directly under pack hip belt = dumb. The industry produces junk gloves almost universally. Most stock AT liners suck. etc

Per another thread, Norrona uses some Gore windstopper on parts of a garment, but most panels are their own "Flex1".

[Lindahl]

I should create a gear blog during this down time... haha.

I should also note that Schoeller WB-400 is very similar to Powershield. It also uses a perforated membrane.

But I still differentiate between the benefits of breathable and the benefits of on-the-fly rapid mass-ventilation of unwanted heat and intake of moving cool air, aka, pit zips.

Eh.. I understand where you're coming from, but the difference is, with stretch-wovens, there isn't a mass trapping of heat and moisture like there is with less breathable types. And thus, venting a stretch-woven jacket doesn't generate a massive cool-off like you think it would. It's the same reason why there aren't pitzips on fleece jackets - it's breathable enough where they wouldn't do much of anything. By the time the pit-zips would actually make a noticable difference, it'd be WAY too warm to be wearing the fleece in the first place. Perhaps you like pit-zips on your fleece jackets though.

What the industry is prepared to produce, and what I need, generally differ. Most jackets have pockets which sit directly under pack hip belt = dumb. The industry produces junk gloves almost universally. Most stock AT liners suck. etc

They operative word here being 'most'. Not 'all'. There are still jackets with pockets ABOVE hipbelts, gloves that ARE good, and AT liners that DO work, because a few athletes that know what they're doing, do sometimes get their way. I've found it's usually a rotational thing, where manufacturers bounce back and forth between a state of having truly functional and sometimes innovative pieces, and having mostly fashionwear (look at the come-and-ago history of the Patagonia R1 Hoody).

Per another thread, Norrona uses some Gore windstopper on parts of a garment, but most panels are their own "Flex1".

falketind flex1 Jacket

Thanks. Looks like there is one out there. It looks it has both pitzips and massive core-venting zippers, which I actually prefer over just pit-zips - much more effective, based on my experience with hardshells that have them. Kind of like having inner AND outer vents on thighs - it creates a circulation effect. Tricky with pack shoulder straps though.

It's funny, the jacket looks to drape very different from most stretch-wovens (possibly because of the Gore Windstopper shoulders/hips/hood). It doesn't look like it flows with your body that well - in the action photos, look at all the hard shadowing. The fabric looks quite stiff and not very flexible. I wonder if it has a membrane also?

It's also pretty humerous watching the marketing video. When they're in the city, she alternates scenes between wearing the jacket and not wearing the jacket. Almost as if someone was telling her, ok, now we need to get a shot of you wearing the jacket, so put it on for this shot... rather than her wearing it for practical reasons.

[neck beard]

Fuck dude, you need to rest

I can't answer all of that.

I like pit zips.

falketind flex1 Jacket

Thanks. Looks like there is one out there. It looks it has both pitzips and massive core-venting zippers, which I actually prefer over just pit-zips - much more effective, based on my experience with hardshells that have them.

They are pockets, not core-venting zippers. For core venting and cross flow with my pit zips I use the novel approach of... opening the front zipper

Here is a spec list in order of importance. Seems you like a bit of work. I bet you can't solve this:

Some type of softshell as discussed
High 'turtle' collar (no hood)
Very big pockets with wide opening zips mostly free from pack hip belt
No insulation at all
Pit zips
Bright colour
Napoleon pocket
Two way front zipper

A little like this Mammut, but with a napoleon pocket, and perhaps more breathable fabric. I wore the old version of this soft shell for 600+ days.
http://www.mammut.ch/en/productDetai...acket-Men.html

[bbense]

What do you feel the advantage of the Driclime is, over something like the Houdini? For that sort of garment, I'd rather have the Houdini, personally - packable size/weight being one of the major pros.

DriClime has insulation and will wick moisture out. Ripstop just gets clammy.

Windbreakers are great, but I think of them more as spring/summer/fall day trip use.

But you're kind of comparing apples and oranges. I don't think a more or less old school ripstop windbreaker is in any way a "soft shell".

DriClime windshirts aren't really soft shells either. But the term has become meaningless.