Whippet, Grivel Condor Pole, or other for self arrest ski pole?

**neufox47** · 01-03-2012, 02:47 PM

I can't find my whippet anywhere. On Sunday I felt naked skiing Left Gully on MTW without it. After seeing Jonathan S's Grivel Condor, I thought it superior to the whippet for the detract-ability of the claw. Any other options out there? I loved the whippet, except for the fact that all you can do is put a cover over the claw. Don't like the thought of impaling myself on it, even when covered.

**n0t1ap** · 01-03-2012, 06:41 PM

Cool. Had to look up the Grivel Condor, didn't know something like that existed.

Free bump!

**Skirotica** · 01-04-2012, 11:15 AM

The problem is, the time when you need it is the worst time to try to unlock it. If you ski with it retracted for safety, you're going to be compromised if you fall. And getting that bugger out might be a lot more than one can handle tumbling down a steep face. Not that the plastic BD cap is any easier to remove, but it might actually pop off when you try to set the pick. I take my chances with a free piercing over a freefall.

**Jonathan S.** · 01-04-2012, 11:17 AM

I unlock my Grivel Condor pick beforehand when in potentially exposed terrain.
The rest of the time (which is the vast majority of the time), it's safely closed up.

**hutash** · 01-04-2012, 11:25 AM

Has anybody ever impaled themselves on a whippet? Seems possible, but has anybody actually heard it happen. I like my whippet, it makes me look so gnar in the lift lines.

**Jonathan S.** · 01-04-2012, 11:27 AM

I do know someone (an occasional poster here too) whose whippets (one in each hand) failed to arrest a fall (and this is a very strong guy), yet those same whippets caused some very serious hand injuries.

**Name Redacted** · 01-04-2012, 11:54 AM

I'd prefer being able to put away the pick for the way down. Rarely do I see myself needing to arrest a fall while riding down. Here in CO, we rarely get solid ice packed conditions like the more coastal climates. I would like the pick for the way up though.

I was looking for the condor a few years ago but found them very hard to get in the US. Now that Grivel is being distributed in the US again, I would think they would be easier to get. Anyone have a US source for the grip only?

**neufox47** · 01-04-2012, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by shredgnar

I'd prefer being able to put away the pick for the way down. Rarely do I see myself needing to arrest a fall while riding down. Here in CO, we rarely get solid ice packed conditions like the more coastal climates. I would like the pick for the way up though.

I was looking for the condor a few years ago but found them very hard to get in the US. Now that Grivel is being distributed in the US again, I would think they would be easier to get. Anyone have a US source for the grip only?

As Jonathan S said, I'd like to have it out when on firm snow / crust like the top of Left Gully in Tux last Sunday, but be able to put it away when I get to the Sherby, GOS, Bridletrail, etc. Especially in super thin conditions like last week where you could easily take an unexpected and uncontrolled fall.

The thing I like about the BD whippet is that it has the triangular piece at 90 degrees to the pick near the handle. I weigh 195lbs w/o gear so I can use all the stopping power available.

I also wonder if I could keep track of the cover, would that be effective enough to keep me from impaling myself on the whippet?

Grivel unfortunately doesn't distribute these in the US. Best deal shipped I can find is about $115.

I never really understood why people use two whippets. Shouldn't you arrest with one the same way you would with an ice ax? Making it impossible to use two at once?

**iamchappy** · 01-04-2012, 04:55 PM

I use the Lifelink Ramer claw, they have been around forever but they are hard to find. I was able to locate another one last year for a Lifelink guide pole and was able to adapt it to my Variant pole.

**hutash** · 01-04-2012, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by neufox47

I never really understood why people use two whippets. Shouldn't you arrest with one the same way you would with an ice ax? Making it impossible to use two at once?

Mostly for four wheel drive on the way up, once sliding on the way down it is questionable how effective anything, including as ice axe, is. Straightchuter has a write up about two vs. one and an axe somewhere.

**thin cover** · 01-04-2012, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by Jonathan S.

I do know someone (an occasional poster here too) whose whippets (one in each hand) failed to arrest a fall (and this is a very strong guy), yet those same whippets caused some very serious hand injuries.

not sure if you are talking about me, but my whippet snapped in half in my flail down ammo, had it stayed in one piece, who knows....

and if you are peeling off a 55 degree boot pack like chute, in firm crust, its going to be tough to get your whits about you. Took me at least 5 seconds into my slide to get it under me and properly dig in, at that point the speed I had created enough force to snap it after several failed attempts at it stopping me, it slowed me down a little bit. I see them more as window dressing. Just hope you never need it to use them at all.

**wcf3** · 01-04-2012, 07:58 PM

Never used a whippet until this fall on a trip to patagonia and antarctica (http://www.poachninja.com/forums/sno...fect-chunk-ice) and was sort of sceptical, but came to be a believer. Ended up down there doing a fair amount of what we referred to as 'loud' skiing (very steep, very icy <=> very loud).

I ended up skiing a couple of lines that I probably wouldn't have without the whippet, since it wasn't always easy to tell from the top just how icy it would be. You could go in with the whippet ready to punch in in case your edges didn't hold after a turn. On one line I wished I'd had two, since it would have allowed me to have one ready (in the outside hand) after each turn, since the edges were just barely holding after each turn and if I'd started to slide, it would have been all the way down to who knows where.

**I've seen black diamonds!** · 01-04-2012, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by hutash

Mostly for four wheel drive on the way up, once sliding on the way down it is questionable how effective anything, including as ice axe, is. Straightchuter has a write up about two vs. one and an axe somewhere.

What Hutash said. Booting up the bottom 70% of Left Gully, as previously mentioned, which averages about 35 degrees, on a typical spring or winter day when the snow is soft, I would rather have poles than an ice axe. But at the top which is often icy, and gets up around 45 degrees or more if there's a cornice, it sure is nice to have "four wheel drive." I have little faith in Whippets as self arrest devices unless used within a fraction of a second of slipping.

**Jonathan S.** · 01-05-2012, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by thin cover

not sure if you are talking about me, but my whippet snapped in half in my flail down ammo, had it stayed in one piece, who knows....

Nope, not you -- although your leg injuries combined with his hand injuries would have been . . . very bad.

BTW, FWIW, I mainly use mine in conjunction with ski crampons on the up: if the conditions are slippery enough to merit ski crampons, then I want to have some way of self-arresting too, and a ski pole self-arrest grip is perfect for falls that are essentially starting from a standstill (unlike skiing falls). I also think a ski pole self-arrest grip is pretty much mandatory when skinning roped up on glaciers, since otherwise you have 0% chance of arresting a partner's fall (and even with a self-arrest grip your chances are all that great anyway, although at least you do have a chance). For booting up, if relatively short and not all that steep, I'll use two ski poles, one with the grip. Steeper, then one ski pole self-arrest grip plus one ice axe. More steep, then a single ice axe (with both ski poles on my pack).
Only very rarely do I bother deploying the grip when skiing.

**neufox47** · 01-05-2012, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds!

I have little faith in Whippets as self arrest devices unless used within a fraction of a second of slipping.

Same with ice axes though right? I think it was two years ago when that woman mountaineer slid down The Chute, I seem to remember hearing that she was in a decent position to self arrest and used proper technique, but just couldn't stop or even not accelerate. That was also on a nasty nasty rain crust on a slope that is close to 50 degrees, but I think if we did the math on the kinetic energy carried by climber sliding at more than 15mph + the force of gravity at 40 degrees, the answer would be it's about hopeless.

Jonathan - How'd he get the hand injuries? Hands were the last place I would think the whippet would puncture. Did he have the straps on his wrist and start tumbling?

**Jonathan S.** · 01-06-2012, 07:13 AM

Is this Mt Hood's Old Chute ... or that Canadian woman who died several years ago in Tux's Chute ... or ... ?

As for the Whippet injuries, I'm not sure I want to remind him yet again of that incident, but consulting my email archives (which are easy to search given the memorable subject header of "I fell off a cliff(sort of)") the whippet in his right hand slashed through his thumb, tearing the tendon's nerves and an artery. His other hand sustained a small break in the bone.

Back to the Condor, last time I checked, Liberty Mountain, the U.S. distributor, was carrying a wide range of Grivel products, but not the Condor.

**neufox47** · 01-06-2012, 12:21 PM

Tux's The Chute. I didn't think she died though. But the accident reports kinda blurr together.

**Jonathan S.** · 01-06-2012, 01:10 PM

The skier death in Chute was June 3, 2001. (Hillary Manion, 22, of Ottawa, Ontario.)
Very nasty weather weekend. The auto road running race was even shortened to about the halfway point for the first time in many years (or maybe just the first time period?). The weather had cleared the day they were skiing, but the skiing conditions were super slick.
I was there the prior weekend and the following weekend. Each time I thought about climbing up above the choke for a little more vert, but it seemed like a case of drastically increasingly the potential risk in exchange for, well, very little.

**xtrmjoe** · 01-06-2012, 06:08 PM

With the BD wippet pole you can carry the regular top half's and swap them out when you don't want to ski with them. Though I think there was a size change somewhere along the way.
I know its one more thing to carry but not a bad option for those who done want to ski with them on the way down.

**bodywhomper** · 01-06-2012, 10:56 PM

i typically use 2 whippets for steep ascents (sierra chuting). i descend with them, too. i've taken a several weird falls with them in hand, like breakable crust with a heavy pack, no impalement. i feel like i'm conscious of them when i fall and attend to their presence in falls. i've never fallen in a manner warranting using them to self arrest and have never considered counting on them for that use. i think having whippets specifically for the descent can bring a false sense of security. generally, i consider impalement just another objective hazard of ski mountaineering.

last time i used my 2 whippets, i struggled with the final move at the top of a very exposed line that required an awkward beached whale type of move from vertical snow to flat snow. it was pretty gripping with whippets. watching my partner behind me do it with much more ease was enlightening. gearwise, the biggest difference was that he had an axe and used the axe shaft to pull the move off; plunging it into the flat snow and using it to pull on and get his body up and over the ledge. obviously, this wasn't an option with the whippets. this event has made me rethink about only having whippets with me and no axe.

i'd suggest calling liberty mountain or asking your LMS special orders guy calling liberty mountain. if that doesn't work, you can try the euro retailers that sell and ship on this side of the pond.

cheers

**hutash** · 01-07-2012, 11:04 AM

Even with two whippets, I would still carry a 50mm axe for just such reasons, belays, etc.

**meter-man** · 03-02-2017, 12:06 AM

Resurrecting this gear thread from the past....

Anyone ever used Coneheads to "convert" Whippets into faux-ice axes? Skimo has em: http://skimo.co/conehead

Looks like it might enable the Whippet to be used for some of the potential uses for an ice axe -- like anchoring a tent, but maybe not for a rappel or heavier duty work. Anyway, anyone get beta on these things?

Thinking about getting one (or two) Whippets and just sussing out the options.

**auvgeek** · 03-02-2017, 01:14 AM

You need a Vorpal!

**bodywhomper** · 03-02-2017, 01:47 AM

Originally Posted by meter-man

Resurrecting this gear thread from the past....

Anyone ever used Coneheads to "convert" Whippets into faux-ice axes? Skimo has em: http://skimo.co/conehead

Looks like it might enable the Whippet to be used for some of the potential uses for an ice axe -- like anchoring a tent, but maybe not for a rappel or heavier duty work. Anyway, anyone get beta on these things?

Thinking about getting one (or two) Whippets and just sussing out the options.

I would accidentally loose that thing SO fast.

I'm a two whippet guy. I like them ok. I only find them useful for steep snow when I'm basically pounding my fists into the snow and using the pick as additional (mental?) security. I've also climbed with a short older straight-ish shaft tool. I liked the tool a lot. Especially for slightly less steep pitches, if I encounter real ice on a snow climb, or if I'm actually using the pick to support myself on rock. Something like the 50cm bd venom.