Boot fitting: Foam vs Grinding?

**dirtybryan** · 03-25-2007, 06:19 PM

For next winter, I decided my top priority gear purchase will be boots that are completely dialed in. I know boots depend on my foot and retailer depends on location. However, what are the pros and cons of foaming for fit vs having a fitter grind/punch/stretch/etc your shells to shape. I searched but couldn't find anything directly comparing the two.

**mntlion** · 03-25-2007, 07:12 PM

Find out what the fitter feels best with.
Foam = stiffer, cold, only one shot to do right, very accurate fit.

ginding, Has size limits, punch first?, Plug boots have thicker shells, consumer boots are thiner, only one shot to do right.

I find, for most skiers, that foam, is not needed if you find the right shell to begin with. Punch of grind a few spots as needed.

**powder11** · 03-25-2007, 07:40 PM

if you want totally dialed in boots and you've got the $, go with foam liners with a custom footbed. Ive heard intuition foam liners are an ok substitute for foam injected liners as they're less $, not as cold and can be re-fit many times. either way is a good choice as dialed boots make a world of difference.

if your in whistler, check out Fanatyco. those guys do a great job and really take care of their customers.

good luck!

L7 · 03-25-2007, 07:42 PM

OOOORRRRRRR Zipfits. I've heard tell of some bootfitters able to get the shells without liners for cheaper and then the expense of the zipfit is reduced.

**arem86** · 03-26-2007, 02:09 AM

I was under the impression from everyone I've ever heard talk about them that the Intuition's were the be-all, end-all of liners? What's this about them being a substitute for foam injected liners? I need more info and knowledge.

**nexus** · 03-26-2007, 07:05 AM

after years and years of skiing in painful bad fitting boots i finally went foam

and it was the best decision i have ever made... (except for chosing skiing over snowboarding)

i got some solly crossmax boots with a 110 flex and strolz foam liners. the boots WERE purchased without the liners and so it was basically the same price as normal boots...

they feel like my feet are encased in concrete... nice

**skiing-in-jackson** · 03-26-2007, 09:06 AM

1) get the shell you want @ the stiff ness you want.

2) get a custom foot bed.

3) Alpine wrap Intuition is killer

4) enjoy warm dialed in skiing.

I've never had a foam conformable, people who used to swear by them are going with Intuition liners...Warmer, lighter & cheaper. Also can be redone at least two times if a refit is needed.

**marshalolson** · 03-26-2007, 09:16 AM

foam liners ski FAR FAR FAR better than intuitions, but intuitions are both alot lighter, warmer and softer (foam liners will makeyour boot ~10% stiffer). both are more for taking up space in a shell that is the correct shape. grinding etc. would be done prior to these liners, or just getting the right shell to start with would probably be better.

**Roo** · 03-26-2007, 09:21 AM

Apart from getting the right shell size in the first place, what solution would you guys recommend for a shell you love that's maybe a half size or so too big? Would a foam liner 'bulk up' into the additional space?

**marshalolson** · 03-26-2007, 09:25 AM

too wide or too long?

you can always shim under the liner to raise your foot slightly.

foaming will lock your ankle in place, and keep your foot from sliding forward.

**team ftb** · 03-26-2007, 09:39 AM

I'll play.

Marshall - The shell length is perfect, a bit wide though. I've shimmed to adjust the width alreadly but once the liner breaks down (12 days so far on 'em) i fear the worse. Is foam a solution?

**marshalolson** · 03-26-2007, 10:08 AM

so, foam packs foam (duh) from the ball of your foot (the toe box is thin like a regular liner) back to the heel, taround your ankle, and up to your shin, as well as in the tongue. the liner then conforms both to you foot shape and the inside of the shell. it is very much a skilled thing for a very good bootfitter to do, as too much foam, and your foot is crushed, too little foam and you are not as locked in.

i have a pretty wierd foot - wide ball, high instep, but very narrow behind the ball back to the ankle (soccer feet). the foam kicked ass for me, as it let the ball of the foot be packed very thin, put packed alot of foam around my ankle and heel to lock it in. performed miracles.

i have 300+ days on the liners now, and have gone through 3 shells in the process. i'd still be in them excpet the don't match up to my new shells awesome. i may still try it, as i am rather disapointed with how the intuitions i put in ski. they are either totally sloppy or i have to crush the buckles to the point of cramping.

hope that helps

**YoEddy** · 03-26-2007, 10:21 AM

I haven't tried the Intuition liners, but I have been skiing in foam boots for 20 years now. In that time I've been foamed by several different people - including foaming myself once.

My advice - If you want the ultimate fit then pay the $$ and get it done right. Foaming by itself may not be the answer. I've punched out every pair of boots I've ever owned (otherwise they're just too damn big) before foaming them.

There is no silver bullet in boot-fitting becuase, well, feet are like snowflakes - no two are alike.

L7 · 03-26-2007, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Roo

Apart from getting the right shell size in the first place, what solution would you guys recommend for a shell you love that's maybe a half size or so too big? Would a foam liner 'bulk up' into the additional space?

Zipfit deserves love here again too.

**KANUTTEN** · 03-27-2007, 02:55 AM

Very few world cup skiers, if any, use foam liners in this day and age (at least to my knowledge). They do a lot of work on their boots though. A friend of mine who used to ski euro cup racing worked on his boots for about half a year before he was satisfied, with all kinds of slices of liner being added and removed along the way. The idea is to have as little liner as possible between the shell and the foot, and still have a very tight and snug fit. This is probably the solution that will get you the most control, but it is very hard to do, requires a lot of work, is cold and uncomfortable.

For me foam liners is definitely the way to go. It has to do with my foot though. My foot is pretty wide, short and with a not too high arch (think Donald Duck feet

). Hard to find boots that fit, off the shelf. So foam liners are perfect for me. They fill in where it is needed, simply put.

I think that the new liners are good for people with normal feet, though. The different "gel" types and liners that you heat up before you put your feet in should be good enough for most feet.

Again; it all depends on your feet. If you can find an off-the-shelf boot that fits perfectly than thats the best value you can get. If your feet are "strange" it is likely you need some more custom made stuff = foam.

**KANUTTEN** · 03-27-2007, 03:57 AM

Originally Posted by Roo

Apart from getting the right shell size in the first place, what solution would you guys recommend for a shell you love that's maybe a half size or so too big? Would a foam liner 'bulk up' into the additional space?

I think this could work. The general wisdom is that you could do with maybe a smaller shellsize when doing foam liners. But I actually think the foam would fill all "open space" between the foot and the shell.

**bda10889** · 03-27-2007, 10:22 AM

SureFoot Foam liners and orthotic is the only way to go. It is pretty pricey but well worth it if you are skiing alot.

**arem86** · 03-27-2007, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by bda10889

SureFoot Foam liners and orthotic is the only way to go. It is pretty pricey but well worth it if you are skiing alot.

I've heard really good things (mostly) about surefoot, but they don't have one here.

**milkman** · 03-27-2007, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by Roo

Apart from getting the right shell size in the first place, what solution would you guys recommend for a shell you love that's maybe a half size or so too big? Would a foam liner 'bulk up' into the additional space?

My shells are a hair on the large size (1 and a half finger fit and next shell size down was way too small) so when I talked to Intuition, they gave me a liner a size larger than my shell. Worked like a charm. My boots are perfect, and I can't remember the last time I had perfect boots....

**Phill** · 03-27-2007, 10:15 PM

I have the hardest feet to fit, the amout of grinds and punches i've had to do are scary. When i first got my intuitions I thought they were the best thing ever but I have packed them out at an almost alarming rate and the fit has started to deteriorate. How well do injected foam liners hold up to packing

**Toby** · 03-27-2007, 10:59 PM

IME foamed liners hardly pack at all, ever. I had one pair last about 500 days. The shell fell to bits before the liner. I've got about 30 days on a second pair.

**marshalolson** · 03-27-2007, 11:09 PM

after 300+ days on surefoot liners, i am still on the first buckle on my lower foot, though i have had to drop the micro adjusts down to all the way tight from all the way loose when i first got them. i am 1 buckle tighter on the upper 2 buckles.

**splat** · 03-27-2007, 11:29 PM

Originally Posted by L7

OOOORRRRRRR Zipfits. I've heard tell of some bootfitters able to get the shells without liners for cheaper and then the expense of the zipfit is reduced.

Love my zipfits after having done thermoflex, silcone, foam and a few others over the years. However, because my feet are the total opposite of whatever feet boots are designed for, I'll spend an entire season dialing them in - at the very least. That will include footbeds, toebox stretch, sixth toe and ankle punches, tongue padding, buckle adjustments, vibram sole addition, and whatever is needed to make the boot fit and perform.

I liked my foam (technica kit for tnt avs race and then carbons). It's warmer. Stiff at first, then softens over time. And, yes, you better have a damn good fitter do it. If he doesn't put a plastic cup over your toes before you put them in the boot, walk out. Otherwise, the foam will push you forward until your toes curl and you'll wonder what was so great about foam. After going foam a few times, I went silicone. And loved it even more. But the zipfits are just plain money with the right footbed and a couple of punches. Never hesitate to keep pounding that boot into the shape of your foot. A bad fit sucks bigtime. If you think you need foam and have a foot that fits well already, try a softer shell.

edit: as for grinding, which you mentioned in your title - you can grind an 8 size boot out and squeeze a 10 size foot in it if you really want to do it.
but you never indicated why you might want to.

**doublediamond223** · 03-28-2007, 01:19 AM

Originally Posted by KANUTTEN

Very few world cup skiers, if any, use foam liners in this day and age (at least to my knowledge). They do a lot of work on their boots though. A friend of mine who used to ski euro cup racing worked on his boots for about half a year before he was satisfied, with all kinds of slices of liner being added and removed along the way. The idea is to have as little liner as possible between the shell and the foot, and still have a very tight and snug fit. This is probably the solution that will get you the most control, but it is very hard to do, requires a lot of work, is cold and uncomfortable.

Daron Rahlves used foamed liners. Look on redbullcopilot.com and watch his gear video, he says as much.

My boots would fall under your latter classification. They have a good 8 hours of punching and grinding in them. During the fitting process, they hurt like hell and I lost a toenail. They are now the most comfortable boots I have ever had, with the best control as well. Anything else feels like a pair of loafers, after getting used to these. (Dobie 150s) The liner is pretty much just leather with some gel and cork, no padding except on the ankles and tongue. The only problem I have with them is that they are damn cold.

If I was someone who jumped cliffs all the time, I'd go to something softer. But I'm not, and they can ski most anything well, IMO, if you pull out one of the spine rivets. I would imagine a booster strap would help as well.

The only way to get a true, lasting perfect fit is to have the shell custom ground to your foot in this manner. It hurts at the beginning, but is awesome once you finally get it right. Foam works, but it will eventually deteriorate.

Just IMO. I'm sure people like Marshal, Blurred etc would disagree, but they ski differently and better than I do.

BTW- Even the "plug" zipfits take up a shit ton of volume.

**YoEddy** · 03-28-2007, 06:36 AM

The perfect fit takes lots of time & work. You either have to be willing to pay someone for that time and knowledge, or do it yourself. The problem with paying someone to do it is that fitting isn't usually a one day affair - it takes time to tweak and fine tune.

This is the major reason why I ski in the same model boots for as long as possible - you know exactly what needs to be done after the 3rd or 4th pair.