Ogden-Snowbasin Gondola (again...)

[Red Baron]

Malan's Basin purchase could give Ogden a lift

Saturday, May 14, 2005

By Scott Schwebke
Standard-Examiner staff
sschwebke@standard.net

Snowbasin connection has city thinking 'gondolas'

OGDEN -- The son-in-law of the owner of Snowbasin ski resort has purchased more than 1,200 acres in Malan's Basin and is considering building a gondola system that would connect a possible development adjacent to Weber State University to Mount Ogden.

Chris Peterson, whose billionaire father-in-law is Earl Holding, owner of both Snowbasin and Sinclair Oil Corp., notified Lift Ogden committee members via e-mail this week of his purchase and asked their input on developing the property.

His letter to Lift Ogden does not specifically say the gondola will connect to Snowbasin Ski Resort. It simply says "up the mountain from a village next to Weber State University."

Lift Ogden is comprised of business and community leaders who are working to establish a gondola system that would connect the city's downtown to skiing and recreation on Mount Ogden.

Dave Hardman, president of the Ogden Chamber of Commerce, said Lift Ogden is encouraged by Peterson's purchase of the Malan's Basin property.

"What Chris wants to accomplish helps accomplish what Lift Ogden wants to do," he said.

Lift Ogden is encouraging the Utah Transit Authority to provide a transportation system, preferably an "aerial cableway" from the commuter rail intermodal hub north of Union Station on Wall Avenue to a location near Weber State that could connect to a privately operated gondola serving Mount Ogden, Hardman said.

The cableway from downtown Ogden to the spot near Weber State would be funded and operated by UTA, said Hardman.

Lift Ogden would like to see the cableway become operational in three years to coincide with a commuter rail system being built from Pleasant View to Salt Lake City that will have a stop in Ogden, said Hardman.

Aerial cable systems, such as those using gondolas, are advantageous for cities because they are less expensive than light rail, there is little passenger wait and they are environmentally friendly, Hardman said.

The Malan's Basin property, which consists of three parcels totaling 1,279 acres, was sold by Mountain Investment Company, which is comprised of members of the Malan family, to Salt Lake Exchange Accommodations LLC, according to records filed Feb. 16 with the Weber County Recorder's Office.

The assessed market value for the property in 2004 was $431,856, county records say.

Information regarding the sale price for the property, its potential value after development, or Peterson's connection to Salt Lake Exchange Accommodations was not available.

However, in an e-mail to the Standard-Examiner, Peterson confirmed he has purchased the Malan's Basin property and is evaluating how to develop it.

"My provisional plan was to purchase the property and then trade or sell it to the Forest Service or the Trust For Public Land or The Nature Conservancy so I could end up with cash or easily developable land elsewhere," he wrote in the e-mail.

"I have also begun to evaluate some other possible uses for the property, including a gondola up the mountain. I am now in the lengthy process of developing ideas and costing out the details of how the property might best be used."

The Malan family sold the property to Peterson so he could develop a gondola system that would allow the public to pass over a spectacular 300-foot waterfall and ultimately end up at Snowbasin, said Mark Malan, the family's spokesman.

"It will make Snowbasin the most accessible resort on the Wasatch Front," he said.

The e-mail Peterson sent to Ogden Lift members this week asks their opinion on his ideas for the project, including:

* A pedestrian village at the bottom of the gondola.

* Student housing integrated into a resort village. The proposal includes the creation of a vehicle-free student-housing area similar to housing built at Fort Douglas east of the University of Utah for Olympic athletes now being used by U of U students.

* A student dining/recreation/study building.

* A new Mount Ogden Golf Course clubhouse in the village and near the bottom terminal of the gondola.

* A hotel to anchor the village.

* A new degree program at Weber State in hotel management, including internships in the new village.

* A new degree program at Weber State in outdoor recreation management, including internships on an adjacent golf course,

* A multimodal transit hub at the village portal to serve students and gondola riders arriving via bus, private vehicle or commuter rail.

Hardman said he expects Ogden Lift members to participate in Peterson's e-mail survey, but declined to comment further.

John Kowalewski, Weber State spokesman, said it was unclear Friday whether the university's administrators had reviewed the survey.

Ogden Mayor Matthew Godfrey said he will review the survey and is intrigued by Peterson's plans for Malan's Basin.

"I'm very interested in his ideas. It certainly fits in with the master plan for developing Ogden," he said.

[extreeski]

wow, I applaud the alternative transportation angle. And have ogled that west facing stuff for a while now. Get it while you can, before the washed masses get it in a few years.

Another one bites the dust.

[ak_powder_monkey]

hmmm I'd like a school with a lift growing out of the dorms

[freshie247]

Sounds Tre Euro,

that would be an interesting development.That school should see a surge in enrollment & in a decline in actual class attendance.

[zion zig zag]

And have ogled that west facing stuff for a while now. Get it while you can, before the washed masses get it in a few years.

That stuff is very rarely good, it's one of those things where you have to look at it everyday, and it might be good to go a few times a season. Too much wind, too much sun.

As far as the gondola, i'm 100% against it if any of the money has to come from Ogden. If it's funded privately, then maybe, but I think it will be a huge failure.

[Stoysluttie1]

That stuff is very rarely good, it's one of those things where you have to look at it everyday, and it might be good to go a few times a season. Too much wind, too much sun.

As far as the gondola, i'm 100% against it if any of the money has to come from Ogden. If it's funded privately, then maybe, but I think it will be a huge failure.

There are positives and negatives to this Gondi which I will not elaborate on. I agree, and Denzel has said it, that the city would want the Gondi financed by Basin, which they do not see it as a "money-maker" just yet. They would rather put the money towards development first before putting another lift up Porky cirque, which only adds to the daily losses.

But, since downtown Ogden is claiming to be "rundown" for lack of better words (and I cannot remember the proper term) they are guaranteed federal money for the revitalization process. Mass transit in Ogden is a great idea, especially one that gets traffic off the roads, imo.

However, the main argument from the Ogdenites is how to make the gondi tasteful and mitigate environmental impact, as well as not have it an eye sore, which is one reason the gondi idea changed from a tram to the gondi, ie...large towers like the bird.

And about the west side, like Fly said, its hit or miss and this was the first year in 6 that the snow actually stayed on a majority of it and was skiable. Adding a gondi on thsi side will keep SAR busy because more texans and philladelphites will want to ski the backside and end up lost or on a cliff, like they need more of that

[zion zig zag]

Adding a gondi on this side will keep SAR busy

I was thinking the same thing, they would have to double the size of the team.

[backpack]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I didn't read anything about being able to ski back down the ogden side.

The part through Ogden to connect the WSU base area with the Intermodal hub sounds more like a public transport system than a ski lift. Somehow I don't see Basin paying for that part, and rightfully so... a gondola through town is public transport, not part of the ski area.

At any rate, a connection/base on the Ogden side would probably be good, and a base village stacked with a resident student population would provide more than adequate meat for visiting cougars. I personally would love to not drive all the way around and up to the other side and the possibility of an 8am class not interfering with a 9am first run, well, that would be nice too.

The most exciting thing about this, though, is the inferred continuing transfer of power from Earl to Chris. He's been in charge of Snowbasin via Sinclair for a while, and seems to know basin pretty well. Maybe something will finally happen up there other than putting a half pipe through the JP return traverse.

[Duker]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I didn't read anything about being able to ski back down the ogden side.

The part through Ogden to connect the WSU base area with the Intermodal hub sounds more like a public transport system than a ski lift. Somehow I don't see Basin paying for that part, and rightfully so... a gondola through town is public transport, not part of the ski area.

At any rate, a connection/base on the Ogden side would probably be good, and a base village stacked with a resident student population would provide more than adequate meat for visiting cougars. I personally would love to not drive all the way around and up to the other side and the possibility of an 8am class not interfering with a 9am first run, well, that would be nice too.

The most exciting thing about this, though, is the inferred continuing transfer of power from Earl to Chris. He's been in charge of Snowbasin via Sinclair for a while, and seems to know basin pretty well. Maybe something will finally happen up there other than putting a half pipe through the JP return traverse.

It may not be sactioned area by the basin, but it would open up the BC in that area big time. I dont think they could put restriction on skiing it.

I thought the same thing about the HP thats in a wierd place. it hasnt ever been open when I was there either.

[zion zig zag]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I didn't read anything about being able to ski back down the ogden side.

I guess we were assuming that the gondy would unload on the ridge. It might be more likely that it would drop a few hundred vert. on the other side to discourage unprepared skiers.

[Stoysluttie1]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I didn't read anything about being able to ski back down the ogden side.

At any rate, a connection/base on the Ogden side would probably be good, and a base village stacked with a resident student population would provide more than adequate meat for visiting cougars. I personally would love to not drive all the way around and up to the other side and the possibility of an 8am class not interfering with a 9am first run, well, that would be nice too.

The most exciting thing about this, though, is the inferred continuing transfer of power from Earl to Chris. He's been in charge of Snowbasin via Sinclair for a while, and seems to know basin pretty well. Maybe something will finally happen up there other than putting a half pipe through the JP return traverse.

You didn't miss anything about skiing the backside, but for those of us who do and know the routes would be enticing others to follow, who had no clue what they were doing....Hells canyon-like, and shouldn't be there, but they will.

How often could you run the gondi? Socked in and windy days would probably shut it down because you know vis would suck in the Cirque (i'd hate to ski over a bunch of those tallis fields) and on pow days, it would probably be delayed a while because control work on the flank would need to be done.

And Peterson in charge? I thought they removed him (and re-positioned him) from the GM position because he wasn't doing a thing to progress the resort, unlike Denzel. Just what I thought I heard.

The pipe is in a weird spot but what a spectator venue! King is still pushing for a Berryland park, but that probably won't happen for a while.

[Stoysluttie1]

I guess we were assuming that the gondy would unload on the ridge. It might be more likely that it would drop a few hundred vert. on the other side to discourage unprepared skiers.

Thats a good idea. The Master plan I saw about 3 years back had the terminal up top and a lift in PCirque But that might add too mich blight to the mountainside.

[backpack]

It might be more likely that it would drop a few hundred vert. on the other side to discourage unprepared skiers.

For some reason it makes most sense to me for the gondola (really a bicable gondola or funitel, from what I understand, to keep wind from being as much of a factor) to either end at the top of MB gondola for easy transfer between the two or for it to have a stop near the current porky lift but then continue on down to the base area. That way at the end of the day they can keep it running from the base and move people back to their vehicles without needing a bunch of lifts/transfers.

[midget]

I'd really question the usability of this lift as a ski access lift from Ogden. Although it's a cool idea, like Stoy said above about wind. How often would that thing actually be open during the Winter? Especially as a gondola instead of a tram.

[backpack]

wind. How often would that thing actually be open during the Winter? Especially as a gondola instead of a tram.

Like I said, they talk about a gondola or a tram off the cuff because it's the terminology everyone can grasp, but my understanding is that it will be neither, at least not the type that they have currently.

A tram carries too few PPH for this application... the cable length will be huge and sending 4 100 passenger cars up each hour won't cut it. A regular detachable gondola (like the two at basin now or just about any other resort in the US) can't span long distances between supports and would be relatively susceptible to wind.

A bi/tricable gondola combines the high capacity of a gondola with the greater stability and longer spans of a jigback tram, using separate support and haul cables. It's like a bunch of mini-trams that detach and act like gondolas at the top and bottom but run fast and stable like a tram on the line.

This one supposedly has a span of 2,506.88 meters between towers not that basin would need anything like that, but DAMN!


A funitel uses two haul ropes set 3 meters or so apart for greater stability and span length (the squaw funitel is a good example). Supposedly good for wind speeds of 100km/hr and above.

Either of these systems would likely not be shut down due to wind except in the most extreme cases, and at that point I doubt that any lifts on the other side would be open either, other than perhaps little cat.

Just for fun: if you really value wind stability above all else, this is what you should be looking at.


Edit: added a few more links

[Arty50]

I guess we were assuming that the gondy would unload on the ridge. It might be more likely that it would drop a few hundred vert. on the other side to discourage unprepared skiers.

Heavenly did this. The gondola there actually goes over a ridge and then drops back down. The face of the gondola has some sweet skiing, but the coverage is spotty. It's also OB. There's a midstation used for tourist pictures and such, but they won't let you off with skis. If you could get off there it would be sweet.

The Squaw funitel is pretty cool too.

I have one question with regard to the basin proposal. How long would the gondola ride be timewise?

[backpack]

on with regard to the basin proposal. How long would the gondola ride be timewise?

Well, from WSU to the top of the Porky lift, in a pretty much straight line, it's about 5 Km. If you assume they're going to use a lift capable of running a 7m/s line speed...

5km/7m/s = approx. 12 minutes at full speed. Taking the distance and over 4000 vert into account, maybe more like 15 minutes.

If they run it all the way to the current base area, it would be at least 17 minutes but probably more like 20. A midway/angle station at the top of porky would allow skiers to get off for their first run or continue down to the base for beginner terrain...

Of course, the info I'm going on is an email exchange I had with chris peterson 5 or 6 years ago where he said that a tram didn't make sense because of the low capacity and a bicable gondola could provide capacity, stability, and span length... but it made sense then and still makes sense now.

[zion zig zag]

And there is the problem I have with it. 15 minutes from WSU, but you won't be able to park at WSU, you'll have to park downtown and take public transportation which would add at least another 15 minutes. Anybody in Ogden can just drive there in 25 minutes. Once the newness wears off people will realize it's more convienent to drive.

[midget]

And there is the problem I have with it. 15 minutes from WSU, but you won't be able to park at WSU, you'll have to park downtown and take public transportation which would add at least another 15 minutes. Anybody in Ogden can just drive there in 25 minutes. Once the newness wears off people will realize it's more convienent to drive.

I suppose a new public parking structure could take care of that problem......
I see, not an actual gondola.....that would make sense. I was thinking of Squaw's funitel after i posted.

[backpack]

And there is the problem I have with it. 15 minutes from WSU, but you won't be able to park at WSU, you'll have to park downtown and take public transportation which would add at least another 15 minutes. Anybody in Ogden can just drive there in 25 minutes. Once the newness wears off people will realize it's more convienent to drive.

Somehow I think they'll put parking in at the bottom. WSU would probably be jumping for joy if they proposed building a multi-level parking structure since the state won't give WSU money to build one. Seriously, though, I thought the connection to public transport was for tourists from SLC, etc. who could take the commuter rail in and then get up to Basin without a car..... not to force everyone to park down by union station. Especially if they're talking about developing a student/tourist village at the bottom, how could there not be parking there?

Also, the 25-30 minute drive to basin eats up a fair amount of fuel... if the lift is "free" to season/daypass holders, it would be nice not to burn $5 in gas going up there every day.

[Lumpy]

Gondy base in Ogden= 'nother spoth for the meth dealers to peddle wares.

[Hunterski]

It may not be sactioned area by the basin, but it would open up the BC in that area big time. I dont think they could put restriction on skiing it.

It was my understanding Earl owned the entire mountain and then some? So they could restrict it.. Anyone? Anyone?

[UTmorMAN]

Here is an update of what is going on with the project.
This is a brochure featuring Lift Ogden that will be put out sometime next week in the Standard-Examiner

Vision Ogden Brochure

[backpack]

It was my understanding Earl owned the entire mountain and then some? So they could restrict it.. Anyone? Anyone?

No, he doesn't... at least not since the land swap. Most of it is FS land now aside from the base area.