Gore-Tex XCR vs. Gore-Tex Soft Shell

**Daywalker** · 02-02-2006, 02:51 PM

I'm looking at getting a new shell and am trying to figure out which of these is more breathable. I know that the Gore Soft Shell is supposed to be waterproof, which puts it low on the soft shell breathability chart. It sounds to me like it is really just gussied up originial Gore-Tex that feels softer and provides a little warmth. Is this accurate? I've tried asking the local retail workers but have not been convinced by their answers. I'm not looking to get a true (not completely waterproof) softshell yet because this is my do-all jacket. The fact that I'd probably be taking it along on spring and summer hiking/backpacking jaunts makes me lean even more towards XCR because it seems the Gore soft shell is going to be heavier.

Anyone know any plusses to Gore-Tex Soft Shell? The biggest thing would be if it was significantly more breathable than XCR. One of these days I'll get a true softshell, but for now budget and potential deals are keeping me to one jacket.

Thanks all.

**Telepath** · 02-02-2006, 04:56 PM

Gore-Tex Softshell has got nothign to do with softshell; it's a marketing BS term that Gore is using to water down the softshell word as the advance of proper softshells is a dangerous competitor to Gore's laminates untill (if..?) Gore gets their own proper softshell out there.

A Gore-Tex softshell is heavier and thicker than a xcr laminate; has a slightly fuzzy inside that's really comfortable but does not breathe as well as xcr (still good though imo). Most Gore-Tex Softshells are made with outer fabrics that are softer and more quiet than xcr laminates making them great for comfy jackets with more of a resort/allround use if you're not into heavy sweating and touring. I have a bunch of xcr and Gore Softshell jackets to pay with and have lately begun to prefer the Gore-Tex softshell if it's really cold and I am not going to hike much as it's more comfortable, warmer, more quiet and also imo looks cool (most of what I have has nicely textured face fabrics; nice variation from xr ripstop). If hiking much, sweating or in need of little packdown volume and low weight I'll pick the xcr.

What jackets are you choosing between?

**Lurch** · 02-02-2006, 05:05 PM

Think of Gore-tex softshell as a triple layer, welded seam GoreTex hardshell with insulation. It's basically a lift serve only type of jacket.

**yesIsaidyes** · 02-02-2006, 05:10 PM

Lurch is right, unless someone or something else is carrying you up the hill besides yourself, XCR all the way.

**f2f** · 02-02-2006, 06:44 PM

telepath, what are the non-BS softshell materials? schoeller?

this is just a question, not looking to start an argument

**Daywalker** · 02-02-2006, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by Telepath

What jackets are you choosing between?

Thanks for the info guys, what you're telling me about the Gore Soft Shell is what I was expecting (but unsure about). I wish the employees of 'legitimate' outdoor stores knew what they were talking about

Since I'm a reasonably po' college student, I'm looking at jackets I can get a good deal on. I'm coming off of a Marmot Gore-Tex (original) mountaineering jacket that has gotten too big for me. Currently looking at:

Eider Commodore (XCR, not ski specific but top choice so far)
Eider Yael (Gore Tex Soft Shell, probably not going to be this)
Helly Hansen Verglas (love the pants, hellytech equal to regular gore-tex)
Patagonia White Smoke (soft/hard combo, just discovered it cheap on ebay, heard good things about it, would have to keep old jacket for backpacking/extreme conditions)

Any other suggestions from you gear guru's? If there's something amazing out there that could possibly be had for cheap over summer I can wait it out with current stuff.

**pointedem** · 02-02-2006, 07:02 PM

i disagree-

having owned both fabrics in a 2005 jacket- the XCR and the new gore softshell,

I can attest that the gore soft shell is a touch heavier, but breathes super good, is really way more durable then I first gave it credit for, and is very comfortable.

I say go with the gore soft shell.

if you find 500 extra bucks, get the arcteryx stingray other then that, the new HH would be my second choice.

**Lurch** · 02-02-2006, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by f2f

telepath, what are the non-BS softshell materials? schoeller?

this is just a question, not looking to start an argument

Scholler is one of the better ones.

**lemon boy** · 02-02-2006, 07:24 PM

Been using a Mtn Hardware hybrid (Conduit Fabric) last season and this.

WAY more breathable than hardshells but thin like one (eg: not a bulky scholler layer) and decently waterproof. Wouldn't wear it in the pissing rain (welll...probably I would) but it is pretty nice. Highly recommend the stuff.

**lph** · 02-02-2006, 08:00 PM

telepath is obviously 100% right.

I just got a 3 layer goretex 'soft shell'. I love it. very comfortable. nice feel.

I will say that i have heard there is NO difference in breathability b/t soft shell gore and xcr gore, but i could be wrong.

**givethepigeye** · 02-02-2006, 10:01 PM

Just an FYI - Sierra Trading Post early Spring 2005 catalog that came today had the Cloudveil Serendipity Schoeller Extreme - which is kind of the "benchmark" (so I have been told) true softshell for $139.95 - for what it is worth - if you are looking for that.

**bagtagley** · 02-03-2006, 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by givethepigeye

Just an FYI - Sierra Trading Post early Spring 2005 catalog that came today had the Cloudveil Serendipity Schoeller Extreme - which is kind of the "benchmark" (so I have been told) true softshell for $139.95 - for what it is worth - if you are looking for that.

I've got last year's Serendipity, and while it performs pretty well, the wrist straps have fallen apart on all 3 I've been through, and a small tree snag caused a complete, catastrophic failure which led to a series of CS headaches that have all but turned me away from Cloudveil. I also am not a fan of napoleon pockets as the only storage option. On the plus side, it does breath well, and has proven adequately water resistant (and is cheap).

If you're looking for a cheap hardshell, I've seen the Montane Superfly on Ebay for $199. It has eVent laminate which supposedly performed better than XCR in lab tests. So far, I've found its breathability to be pretty similar to XCR, but not noticeably better. My only complaint so far is the lack of pit zips.

**Telepath** · 02-03-2006, 01:29 AM

Originally Posted by lph

I will say that i have heard there is NO difference in breathability b/t soft shell gore and xcr gore, but i could be wrong.

Technically afaik the actual membrane in the Gore-Tex Softshell is exactly the same as the xcr; but due to the laminated liner fabric the total laminate does not so well in lab testing to "earn" the xcr label; which is supposed to guarantee performance above a certain level. I do however think that it does great under many circumstances and I love my Gore-Tex Softshell pieces.

As for "proper" softshells; yes: Schoeller makes a lot of them, not just one. They make different thicknesses and weaves which translate to different insulation, windproofness and water repellancy capabilities. Also there are lots of other sweet softshell fabrics out there (Toray makes some nice stuff among others), even some Gore Windstopper laminates are kidan considered softshells (though I personally think they tend to lack the stretch that most people associate with the term "softshell"); some of which are only now slowly moving into retail clothing. That's sort of a backside of getting to play with prototypes and funny fabrics; one realizes just how much cool stuff is out there in need of testing etc.

Imo the future of softshells lies in making pieces that use more than one fabric/cloth as they come in so many variations that body temperature/persipration mapping and different windproof/waterrepellancy vs. breathability need in different areas of the body can be met. I think we're only at the beginning og what can be done with softshells over the next years.

**Premier71** · 02-08-2006, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by pointedem

I say go with the gore soft shell.

I'll second that, I like my bro's Stingray a bit more than my Sidewinder (XCR).

**TurxSki** · 02-08-2006, 03:30 PM

If you happen to be an S or M, you could snap up one of the last few Lowe Alpine eVent jackets.

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/xq/...qx/product.htm

I ended up getting a couple (ripped my first one).
They only have 2 pockets. Kind of minimalist. Just use pants pockets, or whatever.

**CANADASTEEP** · 02-08-2006, 07:07 PM

don't like the gore "soft shell". Will just gets overly warm.

A gore-tex jacket keeps wind out, water out, and prevents snow from melting and wetting out the jacket (when DWR is fresh/new)

A softshell is an insulating piece which is HIGHLY wind resistant and water resistant, stretchy for movement.

A softshell can replace a fleece, my #1 is the Gamma SV from Arc'teryx.
Pretty good insulator, good high pockets, good cut, tough enough.

However if it's really windy, or I sense a drizzle, I just pop a superlight windrpoof windbreaker. It has a hood too...so covered for most conditions.

If you get a "gore softshell" and wear it under another jacket like a sweater you will cook

My 0.02

**Steezy** · 02-09-2006, 03:01 PM

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/pro...F92D17FD685CAF

**vinnay** · 12-12-2006, 10:48 PM

rehashing this thread for any more opinions on the xcr vs. gore softshell.

right now im thinking about going with one of the norrona lofoten jackets, cant decide between xcr and softshell.

i don't do a ton of hiking/bc, but will be doing a bit more this year. i will also use this jacket as a comfy jacket when the weather sucks.

my thinking is that when im hiking i get overheated no matter what im wearing and will always sweat some - i guess im just not sure if the gore softshell is a lot of insulation that makes it very warm, or just a nice comfy liner.

**rungsp** · 12-13-2006, 05:16 AM

XCR is very good....but eVent is even better.

Read around the technical tests in the climbing world, they all seem to agree that eVent is the best out there.
Very similar to XCR in terms of weight/feel etc.

All I can tell you is that I was hunting which involved some serious climbing in Iceland in October. Pissing down with rain at the bottom, howling blizzard at the top. I was wearing a Rab eVent shell with just a godd base layer (Mammut Kula) and a fleece mid layer.

I was never cold, never hot. No clammy sweat on the ascent. And no water penetration either.
In fact when we finished the day everybody elase complained of wet clothes, cold etc (and they were all wearing "appropriate" stuff). I was just fine!

eVent is the dog's bollocks!

**Tony** · 12-13-2006, 07:24 AM

Good info on "Goretex Soft Shell and Windstopper as soft shell" debate and why Patagucci doesn't use them in their products: http://www.verber.com/mark/outdoors/...a-testing.html

I am with the rest. Windtopper and GTX Soft Shell ain't proper soft shell.

Good explanation on what is and what isn't a soft shell : http://www.psychovertical.com/?cuthecrap

**marshalolson** · 12-13-2006, 07:45 AM

if you want the best of both worlds, get a patagonia dimension jacket from last year - super breathable, but in snow as water proof as you need. it totally owns.

**Tony** · 12-13-2006, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by marshalolson

if you want the best of both worlds, get a patagonia dimension jacket from last year - super breathable, but in snow as water proof as you need. it totally owns.

Excellent recommendation. I have the first year's model. It's made out of Epic, an encapsulated fabric that is highly water resistant and very breatheable. Same material used for the BD winter bivy and Firstlight tent in a stronger heavier fabric. Great balance of waterproofness and breathability for off-piste skiing and alpine climbing.

Although if you are only going to have ONE jacket and if you leave in a coastal area, a hardshell or at least a hybrid might be a better option. IMO the Dimension is more of a quiver jacket, unless you live in the drier states.

**flip** · 12-13-2006, 12:51 PM

I have the cloudveil serendipity (schoeller) and a TNF gore-tex softshell. I vastly vastly prefer the cloudveil. It is much stretcher, much more breathable, packs much smaller. I only use the TNF for lift served stuff... if it's actually wet snow or rain, I'm in an arc'terryx XCR shell.

The clouveil is wearing out and I'll replace it with another Schoeller jacket, but probably not another serendipity. I won't replace the TNF jacket if/when it wears out.

Find something that fits, has a comfy collar, and pockets that work for you.

**bushrag** · 12-13-2006, 10:07 PM

From that Patagonia document linked above:

And Gore "Soft Shell"?

This is really simple.... it is not Soft Shell, its simply Gore-Tex with a brushed scrim that makes it softer on the inside. It's just marketing. So Gore Soft Shell has little to offer the Soft Shell market. Gore can only throw marketing dollars at a game of semantics and hope to confuse the issue enough to become a viable player in Soft Shell. Again, hopefully they will throw their energies into some true Soft Shell product.

**Telepath** · 12-14-2006, 06:31 AM

Originally Posted by Telepath

Gore-Tex Softshell has got nothign to do with softshell; it's a marketing BS term that Gore is using to water down the softshell word as the advance of proper softshells is a dangerous competitor to Gore's laminates untill (if..?) Gore gets their own proper softshell out there.

So, basically the Patagonia rewrote my comment from post two and published it on their website

Someone from Patagonia obviously lurks here. Damn, they could at least quote me.