Comparison & Review: Dynafit Freeride Aero TF, Zzero4 PX & CF

[pechelman]

Comparison and Review: Dynafit Freeride Aero TF, Zzero 4 PX and CF

Prelim stuff
Ive owned the Freeride aeros and used them as my daily boot for the past season.
In general Ive been very happy and satisfied with the boot, particularly in its fit and flex (for skiing). Ive been generally unhappy and not totally satisfied with the boots last, its poor heel pocket, the "walk mode", quickly packing out liner that has turned to the thickness of “thermofit cardboard”, and the weight.

My mission for the day was to determine if I wanted new liners for my current FR Aero boots, which ones those were, or if I just wanted new boots. The liners tested today were the stock liner in my Fr Aero, the new Dynafit Liner, and the new Scarpa branded Intuition.

Herein, the following acronyms will be used for each boot. This writeup refers exclusively to Mondo size 27 for all the boots.

Dynafit Freeride Aero TF – FR
Dynafit Zzero CF TF – CF
Dynafit Zzero PX TF - PX

Firstly, Ill compare some physical details of all the boots I feel are worth noting.

Boot Sole Length (BSL)
FR – 314mm
CF – 306mm
PX – 306mm

Weight (as measured in my garage on a +/- 5g resolution scale)
FR – 2095 (EEEk!)
PX – 1625
CF – unavailable as I didn’t buy this

Flex (in my opinion in comparison to an X-Wave 80 with an index of 90)
FR – with Tabs 80, without tabs, 65-70
PX – 60-65
CF - 70

The FR has the notorious flex limiting tabs that I ground off.
The PX and CF both have these tabs as well.
The shell is drastically different, definitely uses a different last (more on this later), uses a different tounge that is similar to the Garmont boots, and the new boots both have a wonderful dual setting ski setting for forward lean.
The differences between the PX and CF really only reside in the carbon fiber on the side stringers and in the tounge.

Moving on now to the flex.

FR
Stock, they are very unprogressive due to the flex limiting tabs.
I ground them off and they have a much smoother flex.
A lot of the plastic shell was designed very poorly imo, and interfered a lot with parts of the shell and buckles and made for some interesting hot spots and flex characteristics. Nothing though that isn’t solved with a quick dremel. The forward lean of these boots is very very far forward, almost too much at times. The plastic, imo, doesn’t change stiffness *that* much when it gets cold, so the in-store flex is very similar to the on-snow flex.. The walk mode on this boot is practically useless when buckled tightly for skiing. Ive actually skied with the walk mode on and not really noticed theyre so rigid.

PX
Nice and smooth flexing at first, with a bit of progressivity (not very linear) toward the end of the flex. Its no where near as jarring as the FR flex limiting tabs, but its there. Id guess that this is due to the sliding tounge joint at the end of the boot, and perhaps a better designed spacing between the shell and the wings on when they contact. The plastic is fairly soft in the store in comparison to the FR, but is still solid. Im guessing the store vs snow difference in stiffness will be fairly substantial at this point, but that’s a guess. The walk mode is wonderful compared to the FR. It actually does something and the multiple settings for ski mode is fantastic. Definitely a big selling point for me on these new boots as I felt the FR’s had too much forward lean and was really fatiguing on flatter approaches and on traverses.

CF
Pretty much identical to the PX, but just a TAD stiffer. Honestly, imo, you’re better off getting a PX and doing some mods to get the same stiffness. Laterally they both felt solid, but I couldn’t really tell in the store cause I didn’t have a good way to try to flex them with my feet\legs. Walk mode felt about the same.

Moving on to Liners

FR
At first I loved them, but then they either packed out, or I realized they weren’t so great. Probably both. To be clear, I have the 1st gen liners which are yet thinner than even the 2nd gen from last years boots. The heel pocket is basically non-existent, the foam very thin, the tounge very clumsy as it doesn’t fit well into the boot and shows wrinkles as evidence, and is just generally marginal now after usage. They are very very light and extremely warm however.

CF & PX
As they use the same liner, I only have to write this once 
The first impression was wow, these things are plush and nice and thick.
The second impression was wow, these things are much bigger and thicker than the FR liner when putting my foot into the boot.
The third, when buckling them on, was holy crap, that heel pocket is freaking AWESOME! Additionally, I tried these liners in my FR boots, and while they improved the heel pocket significantly, it was obvious that the last between the CF\PX and FR are different. Time will tell how I like these liners, but everything fit so well, I decided not to mold them as my foot basically fit in there like a glove with one tiny tiny “pressure point”.


Shell Fit

FR
Generally roomy. Medium forefoot width, large heel pocket, and large volume. Not as large of volume as say a stock scarpa, but not too far off. I had to use a 2nd footbed as a shim to get a snug up\down fit. Once I did that, they felt much much better. The forefoot always felt a bit sloppy, as did the arch as it was a tad wide without getting custom work or a new liner. The heel pocket, was poor. Akin to a very packed out salomon xwave.
At this shell size and BSL, I had about .5 fingers more than I wanted of shell fit at about 1.5-1.75 fingers. Frustraing it was because the 26 was too small by this amount and I wasn’t ready at the time to have to pay for that much fitting or new boots.

CF\PX – same last

In comparison to the FR, narrower forefoot width by about 2-4mm id guess, obviously shorter footbed as in the different BSL length, and a tight heel pocket area. Id swear this last was designed damn near around my foot.

Overall Fit – Shell with Liner

FR
With the stock liner, it should be obvious from what Ive already typed how the fit.
A bit wide in the forefoot, poor heel pocket, and no arch support. I got blisters on my arch and the rear portion of my lower ankle \ upper heel after more than a couple hours of touring. I remedied that situation by getting better socks.
With the PX\CF liner, the fit was drastically improved. Forefoot still felt wide, and the heel still felt loose, but much better. I also tried them with an intuition and it was almost as bad as with the stock liner in terms of heel pocket and forefoot slop. This isn’t to say my foot was swimming, but I probably had 1mm of side to side on my forefoot and about 3-5mm of up\down on my heel if I tried to move it. Toes touch when upright, and move a few mm back when leaning forward.

PX\CF
Like a glove.
I could not pick my heel up if I tried. The heel pocket reminded me of how my buddies lange wc120 boots fit around my heel. It was locked. The forefoot was solid. My toes were still barely touching when I leaned forward, so Im confident they’ll break in wonderfully. Im really very stoked.

Final impression about flex and whatnot.

Will I be grinding the flex tabs off of my PX boots as I did with my FRs?
Right now, no I do not see that happening.
They did a great job in placing it at the right spot and making a moveable tounge that moves forward when you flex forward so it doesn’t feel like such a brick wall. Also, with them being a touch softer than the FR’s, Id rather have that little bit of stiffness right now.

Is it worth getting the slightly stiffer CF over the PX?
For me, its not worth it in any sense. It’s a TAD lighter and a TAD stiffer, but its also over 100$ more expensive. If youre into have the hawt shit, want the stiffest dynafit boot out there, then sure, go for it if you have the cash to burn. Another argument to buy the CF would be for resale value maybe.

Why did I get the PX boots over the new dynafit liners in my FR?
Short answer, because the new liners are not available nor does anyone have an ETA.
Slightly longer answer, because I was very impressed with the new boot, lighter weight, better walk mode, better ski settings and multiple ones at that, puke green color which rocks, and because they came with new liners.


And just a quick plug here, but I really do like going to Bent Gate in Golden.
Zach got me styled and was super nice.
They also had a really stinkin great price that was super competitive with online, so it was stupid not to buy from them for fittings and support and such.

Sooooo
Sorry this is so long and perhaps a bit unorganized\rambling, if anyone has any questions ill do my best.

[pechelman]

and maybe i just shot myself in the foot, no pun intended, but i have a pair of size 27 FR aeros for sale in good condition. would like 250 shipped but am negotiable and motivated

[Dobish]

yo p.... were your old liners a wrap around or did they have a separate sole piece?

[pechelman]

my old liners were the tounge style all black looked like they had baseball stiching around the toe

like last years, just thinner and with no soft plush on the inside

[wilcox510]

Nice review! It would be interesting to do an on-the-hill comparison of the CF and PX. As you mentioned, the difference between these two is really in the lateral rigidity, which is what reviewers such as Lee Lau and Lou Dawson have commented is so impressive in the CF. I think the lateral rigidity is really difficult to assess in the living room, you can only really test that on the hill, in particular on groomers or funky snow (ie. non-powder).

I'm probably buying some CFs, my question is if I want to use the liner they come with, or beef them up with some Intuition Power Wraps that I got through the group buy (thanks again!). The Dynafit liners do feel comfy, but they are kinda soft and squishy. To me they feel like the wouldnt be a high performance (which of course is a trade-off in AT stuff) liner. My other concern with these liners is that I hated the g-ft liners I used to have, the tongue design never really worked well for me (made the flex too soft, gave me bad hotspots, didnt really match up with my shin/calf well etc), and I've found the wrap liners to be better in AT boots for me in these regards.

When are you gonna get some on-snow time on these?

[pechelman]

thanks!
hopefully this weekend

in the store and at home last night, i couldnt really tell much difference in the lateral stiffness of my FR or PX. Granted i was just jumping around and trying to flex them in my garage, but i wont know till I ski. Im very stoked in them at home. While theyre a tad softer than my freeride aeros, Im not concerned in the least about being able to "drive" my legend pros or 192 protorockered bigbros.

Re the liners
I really seem to like the tounge better so far.
The intution is a much more blocky and straight lasted liner in comparison to the very intricate and tailored liner of the dynafit.

Im certain the intution will last longer, is lighter, and is stiffer though.
Its just got that feel. Really high density foam, really thick foam, and lots of it. The plan right now is to use the stock liners for one season whilst saving money to buy intutions next year.

I am however not concerned about the liner stiffness as theyre stiffer than what I came from...and also much better fitting.

bear in mind the g-fit is a bit different animal
i think dobish will be on here to comment on their construction.
right now, id think it would be the same to compare the old scarpa wrap liner to an intution. different animals indeed.

[Pierre LeCouloir]

Great review. Thanks.

[pechelman]

bump for first impressions

skier, me, 5'10, 170. Fairly new skier, dont huck stuff, ski kinda fast and I like beer.
conditions, early season at the basin (ie firm pack with some fluff ontop in places)
ski, 192 STIFF Big Bros with NX21s on the line, think 184 squad stiff. 5 layers of glass

I was a bit trepidatious being the new PX boot is noticably softer than the FR im used to and Ive never been on a ski that stiff, that wide, and that long.

I dont want to get too much into detail, because i only have a few runs on them, but the did great. Torsionally, plenty stiff. Hit some weird bumps and patches of snow and a random rock in the middle of turns and it felt solid.

Forward flex felt stiff enough that I didnt have to support myself over everything, but this is not a boot you can just lean on like the FR if you get tired. At least, thats not what my first impression is at the moment.

Going to take them out again tomorrow, but ill probably wait for a solid 3 more days on them before posting additional comments.

[Pierre LeCouloir]

Pechelman,

This is the PX right? And with the flex tabs in place?

Looking forward to additional impressions.

*edit*
And was this your first time out on the 192 bros?

[pechelman]

px
flex tabs in place
forgot to mention that i dont think i ever hit them, and i dont plan to remove them. its much more passive and just when you need it than i remember the FR when new.

first time on the bros as well
theyre fun, even on hardpack.
surprisingly easy to ski for something that hudge
wanting a few more days on them before i attempt a review

[foreal]

Nice review!!! BUT, why didn't you just pay 100 bones and throw a power wrap in the FR?

[Jonathan S.]

Great info, thanks.

So when I was out in Portland this past week ( http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...d.php?t=100290 ), I tried on the Zzero4 PX at http://www.mountainshop.net

Unfortunately, they had a 26.0/296bsl, and my Matrix is 26.5/27.0/301bsl, so way too tight in the toe box, but seemed like even a size bigger would still be a nice slim fit overall. (My Matrix was at first a bit roomy when I bought them three years ago, but when I swapped in some thicker custom footbeds from an old alpine race boot, raising the foot slightly solved that problem ... although it did add an ounce or so per boot, the horror, the horror!)

Stiffness seemed good, although nothing really dramatic, but then again I didn't bother grabbing my Matrix from the car or any of their other boots for a direct comparison (they were about to close for the evening), yet I had skied on my Matrix only a few hours early, as well as on the previous day. (Full disclosure on wimpy personal preferences: I've been going softer with my AT boots recently, removing the Flexon tongue from my Matrix, using a Dynafit TLT Evo for late spring & early summer skiing, and removing the upper cuff from my rando race boots, although in sharp contrast I use Dobie plug boots for almost all my lift-served skiing.)

Liners seemed like they had some nice tweaks on the typical thermomoldable design. Walk/ski switch is small and recessed, but since you just need to push it, not really grasp it, I don't think that will be a problem. (Plus pretty much impossible to have it get unintentionally moved by something, or break.)

So overall, should be on anyone's list for considering a Dynafit-compatible all-around to performance-oriented boot, although I can't offer any more insight given my limited check. Also, for anyone in the area, both http://www.mountainshop.net and http://www.e-omc.com have a huge selection of AT boots, although, umm, if you're in the area you probably already knew that, right?

[harpo-the-skier]

Note about shell sizing:

I am a 27.0 Megaride (2+ finger shell fit). In the 26.0 Mega I have less than one finger.

In the 27.0 Zzero I had 3 fingers and in the 26.0 I had 2- fingers. I think this is because the Zzero (according to Lou D.) has a deeper heel cup, which should also help with my heel lift/blister problems. It did feel tight, but that was in an uncooked liner. So I think I will go with the 26.0 ZZero.

[Jonathan S.]

A 26.0 Mega is 300bsl right? And I remember in the shop that a 26.0 Zz was 296. Interesting then that the interior length seems to reversely correlated.

[pechelman]

Nice review!!! BUT, why didn't you just pay 100 bones and throw a power wrap in the FR?

complaints with the FR
heavy
crappy walk mode
too much forward lean
not so great last for my foot, a tad roomy overall
poor shell design with overlapping\interfering section of plastic

the power wrap would have only barely improved fit in my opinion.

going to the PX, I was able to immediately
drop 300+ grams PER FOOT!
have a much better and functional walk mode
have adjustable forward lean that is really nice and just where i like them
has a great last for my foot, especially in the forefoot and heel areas.
has a great shell design that is much more easily mod'able

ill let you figure out why I went with the PX over the 100 wrap liner.


another update
skied the boots about another 10-15k vert on the big bros.
getting lots of comments from people
I purposefully skied a few runs in walk mode to really just focus on the boots lateral stiffness and just see if I could do it. Had no trouble at all on the "gnar groomers" at the 'stone and the basin. Put my edges down hard over shitty chopped up snow on the edges of the trail to do everything i could to create chatter. Boots held up great for me. Felt they were a tad tad itty bitty tad softer than the FR laterally, but nothing Im concerned with in the least.

Very happy with the fit so far. I decided NOT to mold them as they fit so well to start. I had some issues with a hot spot near my 6th toe, but realized its because i cranked the buckles a tad too tight in my haste to book it to the gondola line. The plastic is definitely softer than the FR.
On the snow, the boots felt a little stiffer, but not much. Its still early season so thats not a great indication of mid winter temps.

Other than that, I get a lot of comments on the boots, and of course the skis being 192 and 115mm wide in the first few days of most peoples lift served season. They wont fit into the gonjola rack

Oh, and the boots walk pretty well. Not as good as a spirit 3 or a megaride in my shop testings, but much better than the FR. I also like the much lower arch of the outsole as it just makes it easier to climb\walk over rocks and stairs thus far.

Still no touring on them yet. Snows a bit thin for my taste at the moment.
Next report back will be after a tour, as for me and my skiing style, if they can handle groomers on a 115mm wide STIFF ski, they can handle any of the skiing I will do in the resort.

[Core Shot]

any more insight, senor pechelman?

[pechelman]

anything in particular youre looking for?

had them out touring this weekend and skiing some deep stuff inbounds

the tour well, have enough flex fore\aft to make it an easy skin even in steep tracks.
didnt boot anything because i didnt need to.

skiing wise today at vail, they were pretty awesome.
im uncertain as to if it was because i was tired, the boots, early season conditioning (or lack thereof), or a combination, but i could have used a tad more fore\aft support going through some really cruddy\bump sections at high speed my last 3-4 runs.. realistically though, for a boot that weighs 1600gms, its does amazingly well.

skied everything from groomers, to steep & deep (think 35-40* ball deep crud) and they did fabulously when I was fresh. if a boot can do that for me, i cant really say I can ask it to do much more.


one other quirk about the boots.
i like to put my velcro straps together on opposing boots so I can carry them by the straps. well the dynafit straps have an overhanging bit of plastic that made it a PITA to remove\insert it into the buckles. So i cut that tab off. problem solved.

im also definitely not going to grind off the tabs.
I think i hit them a couple times today when i really appreciated it.
otherwise its a nice smooth flex.
i might be looking for a pair of stiffer tongues.
but im not ready just yet to commit to that.

liners fit perfect after 10ish days in them and not molding them.
my left toe box length is a TAD short, but i think I just need to work on my stance a bit and keep solid tension at my ankles.

final thoughts
if you want race boot performance, look elsewhere, this is not it.
this is a soft boot in my opinion.
it is however stiff enough, for me, fore\aft to handle anything ive thrown at it thus far, and more than stiff enough laterally to handle big skis.
ie 192 bros, 186 rockers, 186 lps etc.

looking for a "freerando" boot that can handle any terrain, small hucks, and long tours?
this is your answer, but only if you have good form and are strong enough not to need a stiff boot to use as a crutch.

ask any specifics and ill elaborate if possible

[pechelman]

and one more update

Skied the 192 big bro \ nx21 combo this Saturday at Vail's super deepness on their newly opened terrain.

Everything from bottomless blower, super heavy crud, and steep bumps down their typical "double diamond front side" type run.

I found the limit of the PX boots at my ability\strength\stamina level a few times that day. In pow, there is no issue what so ever.

In crud, I found the limit whenever Id cut really hard accross the fall line wanting to change direction or scrub speed. I could feel the boot flex significantly laterally and these skis were a bear in those situations. They are still very skiable, especially for someone stronger than I, as all was necessary was to stand up and push your toes DOWN to keep yourself UP.

Granted this is the absolute most brutal test and atypical environment for what this boot is designed for and what most people will want out of it, but figured Id just mention this. Im confident in saying that if Im able to ski this boot, in those conditions, on that ski, given my strength, skill, and experience, that MOST people should be able to handle ANYTHING on most any ski in these boots. Theyre very competent and solid so long as you're not relying on them to support you by just leaning against the cuff.

Skiing bumps was a similar scenario. Theyre work, but doable. Again, the hardest test for a boot and not very realistic for those just wanting a "freerando" boot.

Update 2
Keystone, sunday, Legend Pros \ NX21s, bumps and trees.
Similar story to Vail the day previous. My legs were beat from that day, but again these boots did everything I needed them to do. LP's are notoriously a very not ideal ski for skiing tight trees or bumps. Again, these boots handled it fine for what I needed.
I wasnt ripping zipper lines, but they provide enough support 90% of the time for me. (ie i dont feel the tips over powering me after the boot flexes laterally)


Ive skied these 100% in the more upward ski mode. I have yet to try the more forward one, as I really dont need it. Will try it out later in the season on steeper more chalky terrain.

[wilcox510]

Couple questions about the liners. They are faily low, particularly in the back (where the actual liner material dips down and there is just that worthless soft material) compared to other liners like Intutions. When I try them on, it feels like they lack rearward support around the calf (this is probably not an issue, it just feel much different than what I'm used to). Also, maybe its just because they havent been molded to my foot, but the tongue design of the liner seems like it just gives way easily when flexing forward and makes the forward flex seem very soft. Wrap style liners seem to offer more support in forward flex. Any thoughts on this?

[pechelman]

yea its got that flimsy neoprene "spoiler" thats sewn to the liner that doesnt do much of anything.

as far as height, I dont really notice a difference between what I have now with the PX and what I had before with the FR. But yes, Id say they are a bit shorter than a full alpine power wrap from Intuition.

The tounge design of the shell is designed to flex a bit more if you notice the bellows.
They do have a fairly soft forward flex, somewhere around 60, imo.
On big stiff skis and in choppy snow, I do get knocked back from time to time, but I still need to ski them in the forward most lean setting and just get stronger.

If you want more rear support, it would be very easy to drill out the current rivets and install a bigger thicker spoiler from another boot. If you're not handy, Im certain any competent bootfitter could make this happen in a matter of 30mins for 20-30$.

I agree with you that an intuition liner should make the boots stiffer and is a great option. I am very satisfied with my current liners and will ski them till they die, at which point, Ill get intuitions. Worth noting, at the store, I tried on the PX boots with Scarpa Intuitions from the most current model boots and felt very little improvement in forward flex. Of course the stock intuitions were not molded to my feet\leg and did not fit as well as the dynafit liner.

Out of the box, the current dynafit thermo liners fit perfect as if they were molded for my feet. I experienced 1-2 days of hot spots (quantity of TWO small locations). After that, ive experienced nothing but a secure tight fit thats warm and comfy.