Brexit

[riser4]

My wife's cousin and his wife won the "immigration lottery" and came to the US from Brazil. He's an engineer. They are very much a net add to the economy. How's that a bad thing?

Bump. Seriously. How is this a bad thing?

[summit]

Bump. Seriously. How is this a bad thing?

Sounds like it is a great thing

Anecdotal success doesn't validate a flawed system

A well designed system should probably give this particular result too

[riser4]

Sounds like it is a great thing

Anecdotal success doesn't validate a flawed system

A well designed system should probably give this particular result too

Saying it's flawed over and over again doesn't make it flawed. Oh right, that's how this works. NM. Long live Die Furor.

[summit]

Saying it's flawed over and over again doesn't make it flawed. Oh right, that's how this works. NM. Long live Die Furor.

Godwins Law. I win the argument.

Seriously, I've laid out a great number of explanations on what I think are the flaws and some solutions.

Your response is to insinuate that I'm a Nazi?

And it is Der, not Die. I've studied him plenty. He put my relatives who didn't GFTO into camps. So go choke on a bucket of dicks.

[Hicks]

Am pretty sure the way things are going within the EU right now voting leave was the best decision ever. The UK will reemerge much stronger within the next 10-15 years outside of the bloc.

The union stands a good chance to collapse within the next 3-5 years if the Schengen area is not suspended and the bloc reverted to what it initially was: a common economic zone of politically independent states.

[PNWbrit]

He put my relatives who didn't GFTO into camps.

Since you raise it..

The US turned away thousands of Jewish refugees based on but not solely "security concerns" many of whom ended up in the camps. (I'm sure you've read The Voyage of the Damned?)

And some US officials blamed the fall of France on spying refugees.

Many other countries were equally or far, far less friendly to them than the U.S.... but you'll get my point about treatment and attitudes to refugees... "we don't want them... it's not our problem... why doesn't someone else take care of them... they're not like us... bad people get in.. the process has to be tougher"

[Buster Highmen]

My wife's cousin and his wife won the "immigration lottery" and came to the US from Brazil. He's an engineer. They are very much a net add to the economy. How's that a bad thing?

Bump. Seriously. How is this a bad thing?

It dilutes the value of engineering talent in the US. And it depletes the pool of engineering talent in their own countries.

What does not make sense is to encourage kids to go to college/grad school, go into tuition debt and simultaneously extoll the virtues of bringing in engineering talent from other countries.

You can't have it both ways. Plus, this is totally polyass.

[Benny Profane]

Am pretty sure the way things are going within the EU right now voting leave was the best decision ever. The UK will reemerge much stronger within the next 10-15 years outside of the bloc.

Why? No, really, why? Specifics, no bullshit.

[Dantheman]

But, it has to be linked to making the immigration system faster, easier, and higher volume.

We should want MORE LEGAL IMMIGRANTS than we have now, with sensible, socially beneficial methodologies for selecting them, and guaranteed citizenship for their children. We should increase numbers based on our current unemployment rates, future economic needs, plus particular skillsets of the immigrants. In current economic conditions, this argues to significantly increase our immigration numbers with a focus on certain low and high skillsets. Maybe we also want a guest worker program too that is even easier and cheaper to be a part of (that could give points to the immigration selection system).

Let's ignore the birthright citizenship question for the moment (I disagree with you on that one, but don't feel like arguing about it) and focus on this^^^. Do you honestly believe that the current crop of congressional Republicans would ever even entertain the idea of substantially increasing legal immigration, let alone a guest worker program? They don't even want to provide a path to citizenship for DREAM kids who did not choose to come here illegally and America is the only home they know.

If you can see that happening, you're more optimistic than me. IMO, the reason we see the "Secure the border first, reform the immigration system second" argument from conservatives is because the smart ones realize that it's an impossible task that can stall the latter more or less indefinitely. If you flip the order and fix immigration first there's far less need for draconian border policy.

Finally, it's often implied in these debates that we had a streamlined legal immigration system in the past which has become broken and needs to be repaired. If you mean the days when you showed up at Ellis Island, had a cursory physical and entry interview, and only 2% of prospective immigrants were returned to their home countries, you're right. Anything else is a fantasy. I see no indication that modern conservatives want a return to those Ellis Island-type policies.

[PNWbrit]

Sure hasn't started out that way. Adding the UK to the list of countries that implicitly voted for a recession is not exactly an illustrious achievement.

What are the odds on Theresa May making it through the week... loos like a second referendumb is more than likely.

[Buster Highmen]

The most bizarre thing about the immigration issue is the position the political parties have takem.
Republicans, normally the mouthpiece of businesses, should, in the interest of driving down labor costs, be in support of immigration.
Democrats, normally the mouthpiece of the worker, middle class, should be against immigration in the interest of protecting workers.

Bizarro politics.

[PNWbrit]

The most bizarre thing about the immigration issue is the position the political parties have takem.
Republicans, normally the mouthpiece of businesses, should in the interest of driving down labor costs, be in support of immigration.
Democrats, normally the mouthpiece of the worker, middle class, should be against immigration in the interest of protecting workers.

Bizarro politics.

In terms of Brexit... it being the Brexit thread... the Labour party has found itself constrained by it's memberships and unions pro-native pro-worker feeling and has swung mostly pro- Brexit (at least soft Brexit - not crashing out at any cost which seems to be way Conservative party is swinging.)

[ex-powderbroker]

has anyone mentioned this?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...sia-connection

[PNWbrit]

has anyone mentioned this?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...sia-connection

I think it's been widely acknowledged for some time.

[Buster Highmen]

In terms of Brexit... it being the Brexit thread... the Labour party has found itself constrained by it's memberships and unions pro-native pro-worker feeling and has swung mostly pro- Brexit (at least soft Brexit - not crashing out at any cost which seems to be way Conservative party is swinging.)

Well, that would be Britain where these things can make a little more sense.

[Mazderati]

It dilutes the value of engineering talent in the US. And it depletes the pool of engineering talent in their own countries.

What does not make sense is to encourage kids to go to college/grad school, go into tuition debt and simultaneously extoll the virtues of bringing in engineering talent from other countries.

How about shoving some of that moral responsibility back onto companies that pervert the hiring system. Or the for-profit non-profits that charge egregious tuition. Or the government that enables less than ideal education policy.



Immigrant scientists and engineers tend to be exceptional
Aside from cancer research, the scientists and engineers making the largest impacts in their fields frequently come from immigrants. A study published in Science found that the individuals making exceptional contributions to science and engineering in the U.S. are “disproportionately drawn from the foreign-born.” Moreover, all six of the 2016 Nobel Prize winners affiliated with American universities were foreign-born. Speaking in reference to Brexit, an editor for the London-based Times Higher Education thought the 2016 Nobel Prize class should “serve as a serious warning to those politicians, most notably in the U.K., but also of course in the U.S. and elsewhere, who would seek to place major restrictions on the free movement of international talent.”

And Nobel Laureates
Analysis by George Mason University found that 42 percent of all Nobel Prizes awarded between 1901 and 2015 went to individuals working in the U.S., and that 31 percent of all U.S. Nobel laureates were born outside the U.S. — a figure that’s more than double the highest proportion of immigrants in the general population during those years. Absent immigrant scientists and engineers, the U.S. would have missed out on Nobel Prizes for: (1) figuring out the ribosome (Venkatraman Ramakrishnan, born in India), (2) discovering femtochemistry (Ahmed Zewail, born in Egypt), (3) linking chlorofluorocarbon gases (CFCs) to the depletion of the Earth ozone layer (Mario J. Molina, born in Mexico), and many others.

https://blog.ucsusa.org/josh-goldman...nce-in-the-u-s

[Buster Highmen]

How about shoving some of that moral responsibility back onto companies that pervert the hiring system. Or the for-profit non-profits that charge egregious tuition. Or the government that enables less than ideal education policy. Immigrant scientists and engineers tend to be exceptional
Aside from cancer research, the scientists and engineers making the largest impacts in their fields frequently come from immigrants. A study published in Science found that the individuals making exceptional contributions to science and engineering in the U.S. are “disproportionately drawn from the foreign-born.” Moreover, all six of the 2016 Nobel Prize winners affiliated with American universities were foreign-born. Speaking in reference to Brexit, an editor for the London-based Times Higher Education thought the 2016 Nobel Prize class should “serve as a serious warning to those politicians, most notably in the U.K., but also of course in the U.S. and elsewhere, who would seek to place major restrictions on the free movement of international talent.”

And Nobel Laureates
Analysis by George Mason University found that 42 percent of all Nobel Prizes awarded between 1901 and 2015 went to individuals working in the U.S., and that 31 percent of all U.S. Nobel laureates were born outside the U.S. — a figure that’s more than double the highest proportion of immigrants in the general population during those years. Absent immigrant scientists and engineers, the U.S. would have missed out on Nobel Prizes for: (1) figuring out the ribosome (Venkatraman Ramakrishnan, born in India), (2) discovering femtochemistry (Ahmed Zewail, born in Egypt), (3) linking chlorofluorocarbon gases (CFCs) to the depletion of the Earth ozone layer (Mario J. Molina, born in Mexico), and many others.

https://blog.ucsusa.org/josh-goldman...nce-in-the-u-s

All due, but the bottom line is that I have first hand experience being "fake interviewed" for a position that HR ha already slated for an H1-B immigrant and in another instance tried to get a local woman an interview who possessed the correct skills who ultimately did not even get contacted by HR. This shit does dilute the labor pool.

Of the 45 people in my group @ msft, 6 were US citizens.

msft HR even admitted to me that this is standard procedure.

I was shunted out of msft since I'm old now and you can bet your sweaty ass that I would not have been disemployed if there weren't an H1-B program to be abused.

I guess the thing that's so weird is that the immigrant issue is so overriding the wage and real unemployment issue. All the compassion goes to the immigrants, but none for the disemployed.

The articles you link above specify academia, not industry. I'm talking industry and employment issues.

This is why Trump won. No one gives half a shit about US citizens. 69% of US nobel laureates were US born as well.

And what about brain drain on the economies and culture of the places they came from?

[PNWbrit]

All the compassion goes to the immigrants, but none for the disemployed.

I don't think that anyone feels any particular compassion to the H-1B immigrants.

Of the 45 people in my group @ msft, 6 were US citizens.

That system is completely broken, crooked. It's eye wateringly obvious just by walking around South Lake Union or Redmond.

Anyway I doubt most Trump voters could tell you what an H-1B visa is.

[Mazderati]

All due, but the bottom line is that I have first hand experience being "fake interviewed" for a position that HR ha already slated for an H1-B immigrant and in another instance tried to get a local woman an interview who possessed the correct skills who ultimately did not even get contacted by HR. This shit does dilute the labor pool.

Of the 45 people in my group @ msft, 6 were US citizens.

msft HR even admitted to me that this is standard procedure.

I was shunted out of msft since I'm old now and you can bet your sweaty ass that I would not have been disemployed if there weren't an H1-B program to be abused.

Again, how about shoving some of that moral responsibility back onto companies that pervert the hiring system. Or the for-profit non-profits that charge egregious tuition. Or the government that enables less than ideal education policy.

The articles you link above specify academia, not industry. I'm talking industry and employment issues.

Employment issues only count if they're in your industry. Right.

I guess the thing that's so weird is that the immigrant issue is so overriding the wage and real unemployment issue. All the compassion goes to the immigrants, but none for the disemployed.

This is why Trump won. No one gives half a shit about US citizens. 69% of US nobel laureates were US born as well.

Concern for immigration and the existing population isn't a dichotomy. You know it isn't. Stuff like this just makes you sound bitter.

[summit]

Am pretty sure the way things are going within the EU right now voting leave was the best decision ever. The UK will reemerge much stronger within the next 10-15 years outside of the bloc.

The union stands a good chance to collapse within the next 3-5 years if the Schengen area is not suspended and the bloc reverted to what it initially was: a common economic zone of politically independent states.

That may be so. I liked the idea of the EU but the execution was apparently too much too soon with respect to the loss of autonomy on particular focus hot button issues likely to stoke nationalist/exit sentiments, e.g., forcing countries to accept immigrant populations in large numbers that they did not want. Morally right or morally wrong, it was a guaranteed wedge issue.

What do you do when you have a country like Poland where the majority of the country doesn't want any refugees from the Middle East Period, 40% support only temporary resettlement, and 4% are willing to allow permanent resettlement, but they are willing to take in millions of Ukrainian war refugees? Do you force the issue?

Merkel had to compromise on how to manage and process migrants (doing it at the border and turning back those who didn't have a valid claim to enter) in order to keep her government intact after being challenged by her own minister: https://www.npr.org/2018/07/02/62542...erkel-in-power

Brexit issues as Mays takes her cabinet on a reatreat to work out details... and deep irony as Whales frets about job losses when they voted for Brexit... oh the irony! https://www.npr.org/2018/07/03/62554...rry-about-jobs

[Buster Highmen]

I don't think that anyone feels any particular compassion to the H-1B immigrants.

As immigrants, they get more compassion than do out of work citizens.

That system is completely broken, crooked. It's eye wateringly obvious just by walking around South Lake Union or Redmond.

Anyway I doubt most Trump voters could tell you what an H-1B visa is.

Again, the reason a lot of people voted for Trump is because there's all this hoopla about the poor immigrants, H1-B or not and no one gives a shit about the disemployed.

[Buster Highmen]

Again, how about shoving some of that moral responsibility back onto companies that pervert the hiring system. Or the for-profit non-profits that charge egregious tuition. Or the government that enables less than ideal education policy.

As I wrote, that's due, but so is some concern for labor pool dilution which is all mixed into this issue.

Employment issues only count if they're in your industry. Right.

Tech industry is not "mine" by any means. It's cited time and again as the major wheel of economic growth in the US. Inappropriate ad hominem too.

Concern for immigration and the existing population isn't a dichotomy. You know it isn't. Stuff like this just makes you sound bitter.

I really think it is and a lot of that is why Trump won: because he paid lip service to the issue and is using it as a political lever. The Democrats have failed to tease apart the issues.

I'm really tempted to invoke some "you"s but I'm not going to.

[Mazderati]

You feel wronged and it certainly sounds like you were. The answer isn't to blame immigrants. Immigrants don't wield the power.

[PNWbrit]

The Democrats have failed to tease apart the issues.

Completely agree with you. This would have been a no brainer for the Dems... here are the biggest companies in the world shipping in cheap talent to displace Americans from tech jobs.... easy to fix by tax penalties, reducing number of visas, stricter qualification process..

Would have nothing to do with the idiotic building a wall, family separation, zero tolerance, MS13, bad hombres, DACA arguments that the Dems are generally on the right side of the argument about.

You feel wronged and it certainly sounds like you were. The answer isn't to blame immigrants. Immigrants don't wield the power.

This ^

Having a national discourse where regulation is dumbed down to a yes/no proposition makes it tough to even talk about H1-B, much less work on addressing its issues. Point certainly taken on it being an area of immigration to clean up.

And this.

[summit]

Do you honestly believe that the current crop of congressional Republicans would ever even entertain the idea of substantially increasing legal immigration, let alone a guest worker program?

Not the current crop... (and for that matter I don't ever see any changes on BC either). I'm arguing for a sensible solution, not a currently achievable one. I don't see an achievable solution at the moment. Stopping family separations was about all that could be hoped for.

Finally, it's often implied in these debates that we had a streamlined legal immigration system in the past which has become broken and needs to be repaired. If you mean the days when you showed up at Ellis Island, had a cursory physical and entry interview, and only 2% of prospective immigrants were returned to their home countries, you're right. Anything else is a fantasy. I see no indication that modern conservatives want a return to those Ellis Island-type policies.

Hardly... but we live in the modern world were travel is faster, easier, cheaper, and there is a need to have a more official system. So we have one. And it sucks. We can do better. Pointing out the days of steerage class on sailing ships and sidewheel coal burning steamships isn't relevant.

Completely agree with you. This would have been a no brainer for the Dems... here are the biggest companies in the world shipping in cheap talent to displace Americans from tech jobs.... easy to fix by tax penalties, reducing number of visas, stricter qualification process..

Would have nothing to do with the idiotic building a wall, family separation, zero tolerance, MS13, bad hombres, DACA arguments that the Dems are generally on the right side of the argument about.

Indeed