Marker Tour F12 Major Failure

[1000-oaks]

If they wanted to cap users at 180 lbs, why put a DIN 12 spring in the binding? Make it a "Tour F8" and call it good.

[buttahflake]

anyone else smell a conspiracy? this whole fucking thread is being driven by first time posters. i've been skiing mine all season. 5'11" 170lbs. no problem.

[witnessprotection]

If they wanted to cap users at 180 lbs, why put a DIN 12 spring in the binding? Make it a "Tour F8" and call it good.

Id say the same reason they didnt put brakes that only went to 90 wide on it. They need to sell'em. As for being more expensive in than the baron. The rep said it is like the bike industry when something is lighter and stronger it is more expensive, only the F12 is only lighter. No conspiracy from me!! only the truth!

[El Chupacabra]

I'm still tempted to get a pair of F12's and Dremel off a portion of the stops where they contact the toe head, I think the extended range would more than make up for the loss of strength at the point.

But I think I'll wait for the spring sales and just run my Baron's until then, $430 retail is a lot of coin for a product that needs "fixing" right out of the box.

1000 oaks don't do it.

X2. If you dremel off the toepiece for some clearance, and then it breaks, I doubt Marker will warranty it.

[Jim S]

triple word score

Awesome!

[Hugh Conway]

anyone else smell a conspiracy? this whole fucking thread is being driven by first time posters. i've been skiing mine all season. 5'11" 170lbs. no problem.

after your pimping this and shitting on Dynafits.... sure, there's one somewhere,.....

[buttahflake]

after your pimping this and shitting on Dynafits.... sure, there's one somewhere,.....

by simply stating that i've had 'no problem' with mine, i'm pimping Marker? and trolling punk ass dynafit cunts like yourself is fun

[johngenx]

I was out with a bunch of new-to-touring skiers this weekend, and holy shit I couldn't believe how much they fell down while skinning. I'd say 10x more falls going up than while skiing down. They were all on rented FreeRides, and I was sure that we were going to have a broken toe, but luckily, didn't happen. I just cringed everytime I witnessed a "knee fall" and there were plenty.

[Choucas]

Been touring (mostly in the Alps) since the early 80's on every kind of tour binding in Lou Dawson's museum, so this is the geezer point of view on this. First of all, I'm not very familiar with the dreaded knee fall. I can see it happening if you are trying to walk straight up a slippery slope, but if you are on a normal skin track, it's just something that shouldn't happen if you are able to put on foot in front of the other. If it's so slick that you can't get the skins to grip, then it's time for ski crampons or put crampons on your boots and hike up. As AT has bloomed of late, there are a lot of newbies and, as a consequence, there's probably a lot of thrashing going on as they get the hang of it. On the Marker Tour bindings (F10 & F12), it is clear that a violent forward force in tour mode will put a huge amount of pressure on the hinge pin and there will no doubt be more failures. Marker will have to address this issue as a running change in their binding design. If you are a newbie or are a skier who has a history of breaking stuff, it's probably wise to steer clear of these for a while until they're debugged.
I like the design of the Marker Tour. I like the weight and the functionality. It certainly skis better than the Fritschi in alpine mode and tours just fine. I have no problem with the take off the ski to switch modes requirement. I do that 100% of the time anyway. I have had zero problems or complaints on the binding to date. I have a couple of weeks of touring coming up in March and April. That will give me a longer time frame to see if any glitches develop. Since it's a new design this year, I have a few apprehensions about it's durability, but I'm pretty easy on my gear and don't see any evidence so far of any problems developing (but I guess it's the catastrophic failure that's the most worrisome). Too early to dismiss it out of hand as plastic crap, but it's not really in the bomber category as yet. Informed user feedback, pro and con, will continue to be helpful to other skiers, and I'll bet that the Marker guys are paying close attention too.

[GeezerSteve]

Conclusion: don't take a knee fall on these bindings and everything is roses.

Note this from Lou's museum review on the Duke:

Angle of pivot in touring mode is limited to 90 degrees when the toe unit encounters the ski. This makes the binding vulnerable to damage in a "knee fall" while touring (as when you pitch forward with your knee trying to go down on a ski and thus yank the binding plate violently forward).

[Arno]

Been touring (mostly in the Alps) since the early 80's on every kind of tour binding in Lou Dawson's museum, so this is the geezer point of view on this. First of all, I'm not very familiar with the dreaded knee fall. I can see it happening if you are trying to walk straight up a slippery slope, but if you are on a normal skin track, it's just something that shouldn't happen if you are able to put on foot in front of the other. If it's so slick that you can't get the skins to grip, then it's time for ski crampons or put crampons on your boots and hike up. As AT has bloomed of late, there are a lot of newbies and, as a consequence, there's probably a lot of thrashing going on as they get the hang of it.

like you i have done most of my touring in the alps and i never found myself spending much time slipping back until i experienced north american skin tracks. macho 'mericuns seem to like beasting their way up steeper tracks than us decadent euros

[XXX-er]

like you i have done most of my touring in the alps and i never found myself spending much time slipping back until i experienced north american skin tracks. macho 'mericuns seem to like beasting their way up steeper tracks than us decadent euros

I have never skied in yurp but isnt most of it in the alpine,SO how many dips caused by tree wells & terrain are a part of skiing on that side of the pond ?

SO if you got nothing but good skiers in yurp doing the testing how many knee outs are they gona have as opposed to giving that same binding to a bunch of newbies skinning up below alpine in macho north america ... snap crackle pop eh?

damn near every product gets used in a manner the engineers didnt think about and when it fails they say "gee we never designed it to do that "

[Arno]

^^^ fair points all

[tyfalk]

I can't say that I'am surprised. Still doesn't seam like Marker has figured it out. Seams similar to the failure I had on dukes a few years ago

[Skidog]

not really the binding in question but a Duke...buddy had one break on his this weekend. Skiing High Rustler @ Alta...nothing special...the 2 "tabs" that hold the boot in on the heel piece simply exploded. Had to be a poor injection mold..never seen one explode quite like this one did...

Oh well marker goes back on my "dont buy" list.

[Scottish_Skier]

A quick google on wildsnow.com shows that Fritschi and also Silveratta Pure certainly aren't immune to knee falls either.

Its basically the worst case scenario for any touring binding. If you think about it your putting your full body weight through the moving pivot - probably in a twisting action. If the binding doesn't break in this scenario then there is a good chance the toe piece screws *might* rip out (irrespective if your dynafit, marker duke, fritschi or marker). Obviously some bindings will be better than others and there *may* be a specific issue with the F12.....

However just to provide balance here is the evidence that most touring bindings simply don't like knee falls. There are also notes on wildsnow where people have ripped (locked out) dyanfit toe pieces out of Coombas during a knee-fall.

“Any Fritschi binding is susceptible to damage from a ‘knee fall’ in touring mode, meaning you take a nose dive that drives your knee towards the ski tip and pivots the binding up to its limit, where the screws rip or worse.”

http://www.wildsnow.com/1769/fritsch...eagle-binding/

I’ve seen a number of broken Fritschi bindings from a version of ‘knee fall’.
Usually, it involves a large skier ‘spinning out’ and falling forward while skinning uphill or going over the handlebars in tour mode while going through a compression in rolling terrain. The metal portion of the touring hinge breaks near one of the screws. Sometimes some plastic pieces are also broken secondary to the original metal failure. This is probably the second most common type of Fritschi failure next to heel lift cracks.

+ Broken Silvretta Pure in Knee fall....

http://www.wildsnow.com/268/silvrett...eride-binding/

[mtl_ripper]

Health Canada recall notice:
http://cpsr-rspc.hc-sc.gc.ca/PR-RP/r...jsp?re_id=1256

[Eluder]

Health Canada recall notice:
http://cpsr-rspc.hc-sc.gc.ca/PR-RP/r...jsp?re_id=1256

has nothing to do with this...

[XXX-er]

I was playing with bindings today at a store and got to looking at angle of forward pivot on several bindings at a store today

the baron could pivot about 90 degrees , same with the FR+

but the new fritschi eagle and fritschi pro actualy had quite a bit less than 90 degrees forward pivot,it looks like the pivot being relocated further back (compared to the FR+)for better skinning means the nose of the binding is further out which then limits how far forward the boot/binding can pivot

how far forward can a boot pivot in a dynfit binding ?

They were out of stock so I never got to take another look at an F12

[Arno]

how far forward can a boot pivot in a dynfit binding ?

i was a bit surprised by scottishskier's comment about dynafit toes ripping out in knee falls. i sometimes fit ski crampons without taking my skis off by kneeling down with my toes still in the binding then slotting the crampons in. this puts you into pretty much the same position as you would be in a knee fall and i have never noticed it stressing the binding

[Scottish_Skier]

i was a bit surprised by scottishskier's comment about dynafit toes ripping out in knee falls. i sometimes fit ski crampons without taking my skis off by kneeling down with my toes still in the binding then slotting the crampons in. this puts you into pretty much the same position as you would be in a knee fall and i have never noticed it stressing the binding

Yup - but leaning down to fit ski-crampons is very much a controlled action.
Rather than a sudden acceleration (i.e fall) with your full body weight behind it.
Very different total forces and vectors.

With dynafit toe locked out, and a twisting knee fall, it is very possible to rip the toe piece out. Basically the lateral forces from a knee-fall event put *much* more stress on any binding (& screws) than you get during normal skinning or descending. It is the worst case scenario (for any binding).

[Scottish_Skier]

Again from wildsnow.

Basically making an effort to avoid knee-falls is a smart idea when touring. (even if your not on F-12s!).

All randonee bindings can get damaged in a “knee fall” while touring, meaning you drop a knee down to a ski and give the binding extreme torque. Knee falls can also partially or completely pull the front screws out of the ski. If someone partially pulls out their front binding screws and doesn’t notice, they could then fail while skiing.
I really doubt this binding pulled out because it was a Dynafit, any more than a binding would pull out because it was a Fritschi, or Marker, or anything else…

Lou March 17th, 2010 8:37 am
http://www.wildsnow.com/2714/onyx-dynafit-comparo/

[Arno]

Ok - can see that a twisting knee fall could cause problems (and not just with the bindings!)

[XXX-er]

SURE a knee fall is just a big lever (your leg) in effect a big wrecking bar which is gona rip those screws out of your ski OR break the binding BUT so far I think we are talking about catastrophic binding failure of some F12's NOT pull out but I supose we should ask the question has anyone pulled out an F12 as opposed to breaking it at the hinge ?

IMO that would indicate the F12 is not strong enough to pull itself out ... in effect a pry bar that breaks while you are pulling nails

I DO agree with SS ,I have seen the web give people the ability for the users of A PRODUCT to form an on-line user group/break the product in a way not thot of by the engineers / form a lynch mob / come up with a conspiracy theory (we are in america eh?) /organise and confront the manufacterer all in record time

I seen it happen over and over SO fast with bikes/kayaks/ski gear that the manufacterer is totally oblivious to the problem and just issues the statement "return the product to your retailer if you experiance problems or are not satisfyed "

Another problem is buddy bought this thing on-line as opposed to a real store SO returns are a hassle which is why I don't buy much if anything online,

SO consider if there is no feed back from the traditional "real store" how does the manufacturer get good /timeley feedback possibly prevent the users from swarming ... get one of their people to monitor the user sites

So this could be a real problem with the F12 OR nothing ...wait and see

[Chowda]

SURE a knee fall is just a big lever (your leg) in effect a big wrecking bar which is gona rip those screws out of your ski OR break the binding BUT so far I think we are talking about catastrophic binding failure of some F12's NOT pull out but I supose we should ask the question has anyone pulled out an F12 as opposed to breaking it at the hinge?

IMO that would indicate the F12 is not strong enough to pull itself out ... in effect a pry bar that breaks while you are pulling nails.

That's just dumb.