Marker Tour F12 Major Failure

[1000-oaks]

Was about to order the Tour's until this breakage issue got me looking into next year's Dynafit Radical FT, which look pretty damn good if you already have boots with tech inserts. Dynaduke plates here I come.

[blackgriffen_1]

I was skinning straight up a steep constriction and I slipped. Didn't see exactly what happened, but I was far forward with my right boot as far forward as possible. My ski popped and I grabbed it, hoping like hell the binding was okay as I was a long way from the car. Sure enough, the lever was down in "ski" mode, pushed there by my boot.

Sounds like a sketchy situation. I assume you're using brakes since you "grabbed it"; I've had buddies lose dynafit+brake skis on steep slopes and watched as they shot straight downhill. "Doh!" More hilarious when using short leashes (cue yours truly stumbling on a just-ejected ski).

[johnnygolucky]

At this point I'm really glad I held off on buying these this season and just stuck with the Dukes. The F12 seemed as if some points were very thin plastic when I fondled them in the shop. Curious to how Marker will handle this and if there will be any changes in the next year.

[johngenx]

Sounds like a sketchy situation. I assume you're using brakes since you "grabbed it"; I've had buddies lose dynafit+brake skis on steep slopes and watched as they shot straight downhill. "Doh!" More hilarious when using short leashes (cue yours truly stumbling on a just-ejected ski).

Yeah, I run brakes, but I should have clipped my leashes there. (I have a little homemade rig I use on glaciers that is quick and easy) I was also kicking the tail of the ski into the snow.

I'm happier to have popped the ski than break the binding, as per the OP here.

[ticketchecker]

I bought a pair of these from Mountain Gear and after seeing the pics in this thread called them to express my concern. I sent a link to this thread so they could see the pics and hopefully appreciate the comedy.

Bottom line from them is they talked to Marker and Marker feels these are 'pilot error' events and there is nothing wrong with the binding. Didn't exactly give me the warm fuzzies about touring in this thing.

[GeezerSteve]

Bottom line from them is they talked to Marker and Marker feels these are 'pilot error' events and there is nothing wrong with the binding.

Interesting, though predictable, response. Yes, knee falls are often user error, but they happen. If user error didn't happen, there wouldn't be much need for releaseable bindings. Conclusion: There is something wrong with the binding, i.e., a vulnerability to catastrophic failure resulting from a simple knee fall.

[verbs]

I bought a pair of these from Mountain Gear and after seeing the pics in this thread called them to express my concern. I sent a link to this thread so they could see the pics and hopefully appreciate the comedy.

Bottom line from them is they talked to Marker and Marker feels these are 'pilot error' events and there is nothing wrong with the binding. Didn't exactly give me the warm fuzzies about touring in this thing.

Hm....... Not exactly what they have now said to me!

From marker: We just received the defect part of your binding, now testing and analysing it in our laboratory.
First results let us assume that the fibre reinforced plastic had some abnormality that causes the failure. And in addition the case of a knee fall is an incidence that stresses every binding at its borderline concerning forces in the axle.

Basically they believe there has now been 3 failures, which they say is not that many in relation to the number of bindings produced this season........

Interesting, though predictable, response. Yes, knee falls are often user error, but they happen. If user error didn't happen, there wouldn't be much need for releaseable bindings. Conclusion: There is something wrong with the binding, i.e., a vulnerability to catastrophic failure resulting from a simple knee fall.

Spot on! Any binding should be "Fit for Purpose".

[khakis]

Nothing to contribute other than I need to figure out a way to insert "whilst" into more of my writings. It adds a certain air of dignity and refinement.

"Joe Strummer was masturbating with a plastic bag over his head whilst watching The Jeffersons."

Excellent goal for sure...now if only there was a way to ensure the gentle readers' proper pronunciation of the word glacier for full effect: "glah-see-air"

[kona12]

As a happy duke user who has been waiting for this lighter alternative, I have been waiting for this thread to pop up. Honestly though, at this point I agree with Markers response to Verbs...given how thin they look, I expected to see a lot more horror stories than this. If there truly are this few having problems it is re assuring to me. All products, especially new ones are going to have some failures....as long as it is within reason, I am good with that.

Of course I may change my opinion if I have a binding break miles from the trailhead!

Last weekend, I bumped into two guys with about 20 touring days and 10 resort days on their f12's with no problems to speak of. Granted I didn't see them take any knee falls but that goes with out saying!

[spicoli424]

And thats why the new ft 12 is literally a childrens binding, look at the new marker kids binding toe piece and then look at this one, irraly similar.

[Sparky]

I mounted a pair of Marker F12s before this thread began. I was apprehensive reading a couple of the posts above. So, I went up some of the steeper stuff I've skinned. And skied refroze crap, ice and everything in between except powder - because the French alps are so poor right now. I did 1-2m drops, and pisten carvin, I'm 6ft and 194lb and I am fairly rough on my kit. I've got Dukes, Barons, Fritchis and I'm happy with these F12s (so far). I didn't do any knee falls though.

[1000-oaks]

I don't see the Duke being any better in that respect, with the Tour bottoming out pulls the axle toward the ski tip with a huge amount of force. On the Duke bottoming out will put the same amount of force on the axle, only in a more upward direction. The Duke just has more plastic there to help take the load.

After looking at an F12 yesterday, I see my earlier post isn't quite acurate. In a knee fall the Baron/Duke toe bottoms out on the ski putting a very large load on the toe pivot. During a knee fall with the Tour F10/F12, the toe hits some flat stops molded into the plastic right at the pivot (and possibly some fins on the track below).

I'm no engineer, but if we look at the distance from the pivot to the Duke toe hitting the ski compared to the distance from the F12 pivot to the stops, that "lever" length is only half (or maybe a quarter) of what it is on the Duke. Which would at least double (or quadruple) the load on the plastic at the pivot for the same knee fall, and the F12 has less plastic in that area.

Question is, should Marker add more plastic, remove the stops (so binding can go way past 90 deg without bottoming), or both?

[snowdo]

I just broke my f12 almost the same way. Easy hike, 5th time use. I guess the binding is simply too weak.

[jondrums]

the load on the plastic at the pivot for the same knee fall, and the F12 has less plastic in that area.

I had a chance to fondle a pair of FT12 and Duke bindings side by side the other day. I was appalled at this fairly obvious (in hindsight!) design flaw. It looks like the aesthetics designers mucked a little with the design. Here's a case were an extra mm of shape causes a failure.

I estimate that the FT 12 bottoms out (on a "knee fall") about 3-4 times closer to the pivot than the duke. So the force on the pivot will be 3-4 times the force on the duke's pivot in a similar fall.

Can't believe this hasn't been covered more widely (wildsnow?) yet.

[1000-oaks]

I'm still tempted to get a pair of F12's and Dremel off a portion of the stops where they contact the toe head, I think the extended range would more than make up for the loss of strength at the point.

But I think I'll wait for the spring sales and just run my Baron's until then, $430 retail is a lot of coin for a product that needs "fixing" right out of the box.

[whyturn]

This is why I just ordered barons, thanks wunderkind
BC rocks as usual

[whyturn]

1000 oaks don't do it. Stick with proven tech. It's a kids toepiece and heel D. Nothing to see here move along and for one pound not worth it

[jondrums]

I'm still tempted to get a pair of F12's and Dremel off a portion of the stops where they contact the toe head

Actually, if you dremel off the part on the top (not the baseplate) it might work, and not really weaken the binding at all.

Although, it had me laughing that you could buy a new pair of Barons cheaper than the FT12 in the particular shop I was in.

[XXX-er]

I talked to a guy in the bar (so I didnt see the broken binding) up in rogers pass last week with a broken marker binding on a rental setup and it sounded like he also did it while skinning up

[walks]

I have not had the problem described here with these bindings. I have had my F12's break in another spot. Should have taken a picture of it but didn't. This part that broke is a major part of the binding for it to function. I will do my best to describe. The part that broke is a connection from the base plate to the lever that you use to move the binding from touring to alpine. It is a piece of plastic that connects to a rod on the binding. The back part of the plastic piece that connects to the rod broke off. I was on the up with the binding up in the first climb angle. The binding started moving and not staying up. With this piece broken the binding will move forward on the plate. I tried to keep going but the whole binding slid off the plate while still attached to my boot. Not a good thing. I was able to lock the binding down in ski mode to get out of there but the binding would still move some. I don't trust these bindings. Another problem with the design is trying to get them locked down after touring. They need to slide forward on a track. If there is any build up of snow and ice then forget about getting them to move. Yes, you can clean it off but there still seems to be a excessive amount of force needed to move them. Which in turn damages the plastic rail somewhat. With these bindings being made of so much plastic and having it break already, it is not a good feeling to put that much force on it.

The bindings were sent back to Marker. Originally was told they had nothing to replace it with and binding was being sent back unfixed. Bindings came back to shop with an old binding (I'm guessing from there pile at Marker) to replace the broken one. In my mind this is not an acceptable solution. I had about 10 days on the original pair. Still basically a brand new binding. Replace with a used binding? I am now trying to get a refund. Replacing with Dynafit.

To many things can and seem to be going wrong with this model. As you know the last thing you want to have is a malfunction with your gear when you are miles from getting out. There are to many variables with this binding to give me the comfort level to use anymore.

I hope this helps everyone with their choices and thanks for posting your thoughts and experiences with the F12.

[TeleThor]

And thats why the new ft 12 is literally a childrens binding, look at the new marker kids binding toe piece and then look at this one, irraly similar.

triple word score

[pintail]

i had the same failure without even a full knee fall. i couldnt believe a tour binding broke so easy. im 5'8" and 150 pounds so its not the size of verbs. its the design of the tour 12. i just hope marker recalls this binding before people get hurt or worse. i didnt enjoy hiking out instead of skiing out. not cool.

[1000-oaks]

Doubt anyone will get hurt, the pivot stop design flaw is only an issue in loose-heel climbing mode.

I just can't imagine heading out on a tour being paranoid of a knee fall, wondering at every step if I'll be postholing back.

[witnessprotection]

Well since this is my first post ( sort of ) , I expect to be called a Jong at least a hundred times. I was stoked about the f12, until the rep came to our shop this fall. The rep. pretty much told us, not to sell this binding to anyone who weighed more than 180 lbs. His description of who we should sell this binding to, would be someone doing only back country on skinnier skis. He told us the German engineers didnt even want to offer this binding with brakes over 90 but that would have eliminated U.S. sales. The duke and baron have been huge successes and the tour maybe as well, I just think it was intended to be used by lighter , less aggressive skiers more interested in the hike than the turns. Just my 2 cents, now flame me or call me a jong so Ill feel at home!!

[2nd mate]

Well since this is my first post ( sort of ) , I expect to be called a Jong at least a hundred times. I was stoked about the f12, until the rep came to our shop this fall. The rep. pretty much told us, not to sell this binding to anyone who weighed more than 180 lbs. His description of who we should sell this binding to, would be someone doing only back country on skinnier skis. He told us the German engineers didnt even want to offer this binding with brakes over 90 but that would have eliminated U.S. sales. The duke and baron have been huge successes and the tour maybe as well, I just think it was intended to be used by lighter , less aggressive skiers more interested in the hike than the turns. Just my 2 cents, now flame me or call me a jong so Ill feel at home!!

No shit? Looking at the binder and its lack of "beef"(grassfed of course I am just over 180 and I sure as heck don't like the looks of it. But never the less him telling you that is fucked.

btw: good input JONG and if there is any more please elaborate on the meeting.