Austria trip in Jan '11 - advice appreciated

[spaztwelve]

Hello all!!!!

I'm in the beginning stages of planning a trip to Austria with my wife and her family who live in Ireland. I skiied Europe once with my family when I was younger but, honestly, I don't know the first thing about planning a trip there. I'm really just looking for some recommendations on a few things. Here goes nothing...

1. Resorts - I would like to find a place that can accomodate all levels. I don't want sacrifice my own fun though, so I'm hoping for a good selection of challenging terrain. Is there a must go resort?

2. Accomodations - apparently, there's all sorts of Euro packages that are pretty inexpensive. My wife's brother has been a bunch. Do you have any specific advice...things I should consider/know?

3. Equipment - I assume it's not cost effective to lug all my equipement there. Should I bring my boots but rent everything else, or should I bring my own skis? Will I be able to get sweet rental gear that won't leave me longing for my own equipment?

4. Misc. - Is there anything that I'm probably not considering that you can school me on?

I appreciate your help.

[cmsummit]

1. Resorts - I would like to find a place that can accomodate all levels. I don't want sacrifice my own fun though, so I'm hoping for a good selection of challenging terrain. Is there a must go resort?

St. Anton.

[keipow]

it's always cheaper to bring your own equipment. A ski bag, even with the new airline luggage fees, is less than 2 or 3 days rental. The only reasons to not bring the skis are either if you plan to go elsewhere and prefer not to lug the skis around or your rental car may not have space.

I'd get a soft ski bag with wheels and do trains. bring ski and boot carry straps or backpacks with ski carry even if you are renting gear. (yeah, i am a wuss, but it makes the trip more enjoyable, especially for people not used to skiing.)

the demo gear is good enough.

consider investigating and hiring a good mountain guide for a day or two. the entire group can come, and they'll have as much fun as you do. hire a maggot.

bring your bc gear, beacon, shovel, harness, crampons, ice picks, whippets, skins, etc.
at the very least, bring beacons for lift-accessed off-piste.

cabin/chalet rental should be doable with your group size, and cheaper.

Second for St. Anton. You can reach Davos and many other Swiss resorts there too.

travel insurance with medical evacuation. (talk to AAA) some resorts even allows you to buy it when you buy the lift tickets.

[spaztwelve]

it's always cheaper to bring your own equipment. A ski bag, even with the new airline luggage fees, is less than 2 or 3 days rental. The only reasons to not bring the skis are either if you plan to go elsewhere and prefer not to lug the skis around or your rental car may not have space.

I'd get a soft ski bag with wheels and do trains. bring ski and boot carry straps or backpacks with ski carry even if you are renting gear. (yeah, i am a wuss, but it makes the trip more enjoyable, especially for people not used to skiing.)

the demo gear is good enough.

consider investigating and hiring a good mountain guide for a day or two. the entire group can come, and they'll have as much fun as you do. hire a maggot.

bring your bc gear, beacon, shovel, harness, crampons, ice picks, whippets, skins, etc.
at the very least, bring beacons for lift-accessed off-piste.

cabin/chalet rental should be doable with your group size, and cheaper.

Second for St. Anton. You can reach Davos and many other Swiss resorts there too.

travel insurance with medical evacuation. (talk to AAA) some resorts even allows you to buy it when you buy the lift tickets.

Wow...thanks so much. This is all great advice. I suppose you could get away with two bags (one ski, one suitcase?).

[cloud cult]

Most regions offer package deals, with hotel, breakfast, lodging and tickets included. These deals vary on time; the best are often for the middle two weeks of January and anything after mid-March. February is generally high season.

The main problem IMO is deciding where to go; Austria has hundreds of resorts, most of which you've probably never heard of but can still be staggering in size.

Tiscover.com is a hub for resorts and packages. You can use that to weed places out.

With the number of resorts tied in to common lift passes and bus systems you may want to consider not one area but a region. Mayrhofen, for example, or Kitz Alpen, or Amade, or the Zell/Kaprun area, or Leogang/Saalbach or ... Each would easily satisfy you for a week.

For figuring how accessible adjacent resorts are, use oebb.at. Note that many resort regions allow skiers to ride busses for free to and from lifts.

[blowupthemoon]

First, avoid the holidays like the plague if you're going in January. Christmas week is worse out there than here in the states with crowds, wall-to-wall assholes, and lift line free-for-alls.

Packages are a great way to save money, one time we had a decent little chalet 1/4 mile from the slopes, included in the package was a 7 day lift ticket and dinner every night.

In terms of equipment, leave the skis, bring your boots. Demo equipment is often times included in packages, and lugging your gear through countless airports, train stations, buses, etc...can become a serious pita.

I agree it's not so much about what resort, but what region. I guess people here really have hard ons for St. Anton, but it's not the only resort in the Tyrol area worth looking at. It's got sick terrain but it's expensive as hell and heavily populated by the rich douchebag bogner crowd. Check out the regions and see what fits for you all. Check out the resorts in the Salzburg and Carinthia area.

For a family with widely differing abilities, I'd suggest the Saalbach-Hinterglem-Leogang area that cloud cult mentioned, it has something for everyone. The girlfriend and I took her parents there and everyone had a great time. Not a ton of expert terrain, but a solid compromise none-the-less.

Lastly, learn a little conversational german. I always find that respecting the hell out of the locals goes a long way, even when they speak english.

[Toby]

Lastly, learn a little conversational german. I always find that respecting the hell out of the locals goes a long way, even when they speak english.

The locals won't care much, they'll hate you anyway.

Yeah, visit bergfex.at or any of those other sites ^ and pick a region. January can be a bit bony, so altitude and snowsure areas can help. Look at a map and in western Austria there is one big valley (the Inntal containing Innsbruck) with lots of offshoots running north and south. The northern offshoots are generally lower but can get more storms, the southern offshoots are higher and can stay colder and more alpine.

The Arlberg region is nice, with St. Anton/St. Christoph/Stuben/Zürs/Lech. There are other major valleys, such as the Paznauntal (Ischgl), Ötztal (Sölden, Obergurgl, Hochgurgl), Zillertal (Mayrhoffen, Tuxertal), etc, etc. Others to look at include Fiss/Serfaus/Ladis, Kleinwalsertal (sort of a special case - Austria but you can only get there from Germany so it's sort of de facto Germany), etc, etc. The further east you go the less I know about but there are literally hundreds of areas to choose from.

I suggest making a list of what you want in a resort, because there are a lot of resorts that have inexpensive accommodation and cater to all levels. But some resorts have certain attributes that others don't, e.g. non-skiing activities for family members, proximity to large towns etc.

Somewhere with a glacier nearby can be a good idea (Ötztal, Zillertal, Kaprun, etc, etc).

[brannen]

St Anton is the shit
not high German, so learning most 'German' phrases did nothing for me there
beware of the monsters around christmas time

[Toby]

Despite speaking Tirolean to them, the locals refused to speak even high German to me in St. Anton. They'd answer me in English, God knows why (usually I was with English speaking friends). If they don't know you, they don't respect you. To be fair, St. Anton was the only town I ever found this attitude in. And you won't notice it unless you know what to look for, so it won't spoil your holiday and they'll smile to your face etc. But I really had a couple of bad experiences in St. Anton and universally good experiences everywhere else in Austria.

[garyfromterrace]

St. Anton.

What he said, Kitz is great fun too.

Montafon has some great touring as well as large variety (and is much quainter than the bigger mega Austrian resorts).

[Sessiøn]

I spent a week trying to get some poopenhausen in Ischgl. Like pulling teeth. Snow was good, and no one wanted to go off piste. Pow turns 10 feet off the trail all week long.

[spaztwelve]

Great advice everyone. Thanks for the input. We're going mid to late January.

So far what I'm getting is:

1. It's less about the resort itself and more about the region. Altitude is your friend in January and everyone will hate me.

2. Package deals can be favorable - this is what we've been looking at. We're not trying to break the bank. If you call an Irishman a Bogman because he wears a Bogner, he might punch you in the face.

3. Boots good...skis questionable. I think it could be fun to try out other equipment. I'm not one to demo stuff very often (which means my opinion on what makes equipment good is completely subjective). I hope they have long, wide, and stiff skis for me.

Keep it coming, if you have anything to add. This is great!

[cloud cult]

Some of these regions are staggering in scope. Look at Kitz-Alpen, for instance:

http://www.skimap.kitzalps.com/default.asp?Lang=en

And Ski Amade, just south of Salzburg.

http://www.skiamade.com/en/winter/sk...slopepanorama/

Radstadt, the center of Amade, is about 2 hours by bus and train from Kitzbuhel.

Mayrhofen is large enough

http://www.austria-trips.com/Mayrhof...i-area-map.htm

but it's just down the road from Hintertux

http://www.ski-direct.co.uk/resort_i...en_pmap_17.jpg

and is a few miles from Zell and Gerlos

http://www.bergfex.com/gerlos/#/gerlos/panorama/

which takes you to Wildkogel

http://www.skiresorts-test.com/trailmap/wildkogel.html

which is a few miles from Pass Thurn and the start of the Ski Safari Kitzbuhel.

If you skip that turnoff and keep headed straight then you are about 5 miles from Zell am See. Skip that turnoff and then you are a few miles from the west edge of Ski Amade. The entire area likely has 1,000 ski lifts.

[comish]

1: Resorts. Yes, it is about the region, but if you like skiing pow and are booking this in advance so can't follow the standard Euro maggot advice of follow the snow, you want to pick places that get higher than average snowfall, have less probabilities of rain, and some off-piste/above tree line terrain. This actually limits your options considerably. Most low altitude Austrian resorts, while huuuge and with great atmosphere, get very little snow, are too low in elevation and therefore get lots of rain, and really don't get much pow at all. From my experience and research (yes I live in CA, but have skied all over Yurp) most of Austria doesn't qualify. The Arlberg gets on average the most snow in Austria. Solden, Ischgl, Oburgurgl, and the glacier areas would be next as all have high enough elevation to minimize rain (it still happens rather frequently) and tend to receive a fair amount of snow.

2. I have always booked direct and found it actually works out cheaper than packages, but requires a lot of leg work. Other issue with packages is they usually include flights from the UK/Ireland. If you are all coming from different places this can be difficult to manage. My MO is usually to fire off a slew of emails to hotels/guest houses, Inn's, etc asking what availability they have for the week in question and the price. I have always done this in English and had no problems. late Jan is a perfect time to get lower season rates and find availability.

3. Definitely carry your boots on. Skis is a little more interesting. If you like fat skis, >90mm underfoot, then bring them unless you go to St. Anton. Even there, I would bring them. They have good quality demo's, but for a week they aren't that cheap and most Austrian areas only rent carving or race skis. You will be blown away that literally 99% of skiers are on 165cm race boards. St. Anton is the one exception to that rule. You can demo some great stuff at a couple of St. Anton shops, but even there most are still on carving/race skis. Some of the other places I listed will have a small amount of fat skis, but its a very small amount.

After years of going to St. Anton (you can search my TR's) I took my inlaws there 2 years ago. They are German, had never wanted to go because of its reputation for steep terrain etc., but ended up loving it. The main intermediate runs can get crazy crowded which wasn't ideal. I have almost always been new years week, and I think its about even with the US in terms of crowds. You have to get up in the morning, avoid certain lifts at peak times, and the main runs can get crazy crowded, but if you have a clue the lift lines are short, and I have skied thigh/waist deep pow 1/2 the trips, and knee deep the other 25% and only gotten skunked twice I think? Not bad for early season in Yurp over probably 8 or so trips.

I would happily spend a week in Solden or Ischgl as well. Ischgl on average doesn't get quite as much snow, but I don't think the pow gets skied as quickly when it comes. Solden is super high with glaciers and also doesn't get skied out as quickly. Their snowfall seems like its a "when it rains it pours" kind of thing. There can be lots, or it could be clear and cold for long periods of time.

You will have a blast wherever. The Apres ski is the best in the world. Just check your musical judgement meter at the boarder and have a gluhwein or 4 and you will have a blast.

[comish]

Many of the places suggested by Cloud Cult are indeed ginormous, but low elevation. If you are winging it or live nearby that works. If you are flying from afar and planning in advance and like to ski pow off-piste, not so much in my opinion.

Also, you got Avi gear and knowledge? If not, join ski school/get a guide so you don't kill yourself. Off the groomer = OB in American terms for Yurp. Seen an Avi kill 5 people literally 15 meters off the piste so its serious biz over there.

[hutash]

I second everything comish has to say. He is spot on. I love Ischgl, but St Anton and region is amazing. Ischgl skiers stay on piste even more than at St Anton, so getting off piste is a must, but it is very different then US off piste. Hook up with some locals or hire a guide, it is worth it especially if it is your first time in Yurp. Skiing there is very different, fun, but different.

edit to add: Hiking guides is easy in Yurp, but you have two types. You can basically take a private lesson who can guide you through out the ski area, but can not take you out of bounds. If you want to really ski out side the ski area, you need to hike a mountain guide (each guide has different certifications.) One you can hike through the ski school the other you hike through a local guide office. Just ask around in town, it is usually very easy to do.

[Toby]

Or you can ask in the ski school for a schiführer or bergführer (ski or mountain guide). A lot of senior instructors will have guiding qualifications.

If you really want big snow, the weather typically comes from the north and west. So although St. Anton does alright with snow, Stuben typically does much better, and even better is the little area down the pass from Stuben (Sonnenkopf). Also, Lech/Zürs typically does better than St. Anton, and Warth/Schröcken* does better still. All but the latter are on one pass (I think, not sure about the Sonnenkopf), so you can plan your days in the one area according to where conditions are best. Some of the areas don't link and you need to take public transport (cheap or free and reliable/punctual).

* Warth/Schröcken is just an example of prevailing weather direction but you can't get to it from Lech in winter despite them being only a few km apart. The road is closed due to avalanche hazard.

[comish]

All the areas with the exception of Warth/Schrocken are part of the Arlberg lift pass. You can get to all areas pretty easily, its more a matter of where do you want to stay. You will end up skiing the areas around which ever village you stay in more than the further one's just because of the time it takes to get there, but that is also part of the fun. For me, St. Anton is the most fun and best experience of the towns in the Arlberg, but to each his own on that one.

You can get a senior instructor through either of the ski schools to take you off-piste in the Arlberg. My recollection is in Yurp you only need a true guide (IAGM or whatever the initials are) if you are on glaciated terrain of which there is none in the Arlberg.

[spaztwelve]

Wow...thanks SO MUCH for all this. This forum really pulls through.

2. ...Other issue with packages is they usually include flights from the UK/Ireland.

We're actually going to Ireland first for a few days, so these packages will work for us.

3. Definitely carry your boots on. Skis is a little more interesting. If you like fat skis, >90mm underfoot, then bring them unless you go to St. Anton. Even there, I would bring them.

I was worried about this. I'm going to bring my skis. I'll probably snowboard a bit too (my wife boards and I used to...I've switched back after 23 years of strictly boarding ) but I can rent that...since Yurripeans board the same, for the most part.

'blahblahblah' St. Anton 'blahblahblahblah' Solden or Ischgl 'blahblahblah'.

I like what you're sayin'

You've given me good food for though. I think it's important that everyone on this trip organize based on the highest common denominator...me. I'm the only one with lots of experience/years on snow. They're all beginner/intermediate, so it really doesn't matter what resort they go to. They'll have plenty of terrain no matter what.

[spaztwelve]

Many of the places suggested by Cloud Cult are indeed ginormous, but low elevation. If you are winging it or live nearby that works. If you are flying from afar and planning in advance and like to ski pow off-piste, not so much in my opinion.

Also, you got Avi gear and knowledge? If not, join ski school/get a guide so you don't kill yourself. Off the groomer = OB in American terms for Yurp. Seen an Avi kill 5 people literally 15 meters off the piste so its serious biz over there.

Yes. I do have gear and general training. I like the idea of a guide. I may have to go solo (private session) though. There may be no one else on the trip that wants to go where I want to go. Do you know if it's kosher to get put in with another group getting guided?

This trip is getting planned around me since I have this crazy love of skiing. My wife is somewhat new to shredding as is her family (her brother has caught the bug and takes trips every year now from Ireland). For the past 3 years, all of our vacation money has gone to Ireland trips, so my wife can visit her family (a few times a year). She decided that a trip that combining both was in order, which I'm grateful for, but I'm the only more experienced one.

[horizon]

In St Anton you can join the "powder club" getting guided offpiste by an instructor in a group with 5 others, for about 90 Euro/day/person, or even better join Piste to Powder if you can find a free place. P2P go from Level 1 (light offpiste) to 4.

For a private guide, I've skied with Pio Jutz and would highly recommend him.

[Toby]

You've given me good food for though. I think it's important that everyone on this trip organize based on the highest common denominator...me.

I like your selfish attitude.

They're all beginner/intermediate, so it really doesn't matter what resort they go to. They'll have plenty of terrain no matter what.

How beginner? St. Anton sucks for complete beginners and low intermediates or timid intermediates. Some of the runs labelled intermediate are just there to portray it as a family friendly resort IMHO. It's excellent for aggressive intermediates upwards but there are better places for beginners. If they're complete beginners it's a big jump from a couple of short, crappy drag lifts to suddenly going up the middle mountains. Lech up the road is much more suited, but accommodation prices are $$.

[H-man]

... I don't know about this year, but Anton was pretty good last year...
















I'd give it a try if I were you.

[comish]

^^^ I thought they didn't get any pow in Austria

[freshie247]

St. Anton + Swedish girls = Score!