"Shin Rolling" debate

[SP_sam-O]

So with shin bang being a major problem this year for me with Salomon boots, I change to Dalbello. They didn't come with the intuitions(which I already complained about in another thread) so I will be getting custom footbeds and intuitions sometime in october or november. On another note:

A friend told me about taking a rolling pin and rolling my shins to get rid of the massives bump on my lower right shin, and do it on both shins to toughen them up(he had done it a few weeks ago and swore by it), and I thought he had been smoking a bit too much crack lately. I looked it up later and found that a lot of people do that in Tae Kwon Do type sports so there shins dont hurt while kicking/especially getting blocked. I also read that this permanently kills the nerves in your shins, making it so you can't tell if you have a shin injury that actually needs medical attention. That seems like a good argument against doing this, but I was still wondering what the mags here think of it. Its so tempting, thinking about not having much feeling in my shins getting in the way of my skiing, and how much that helps my skiing(this year I skied like shit compared to last year), but I am also young and don't want to risk permanent injury. Anyways, thought I'd post it up. Post away.

[splat]

Don't major shin injuries involve a bone sticking out through the skin?
Who needs to feel it if it's that obvious?

[mntlion]

why not try on some boots, when your shins dont hurt already and find a boot that feels/flexes right for you?


that and get out of the back seat while skiing

[SP_sam-O]

Don't major shin injuries involve a bone sticking out through the skin?
Who needs to feel it if it's that obvious?

haha, I didn't mean quite that major, I meant like..chipping or something.

why not try on some boots, when your shins dont hurt already and find a boot that feels/flexes right for you?


that and get out of the back seat while skiing

Yes, I have tried very many boots(after not skiing a few months, so with good shins). About every brand, different models, styles, etc. Every bootfitter I have been to tells me how wierd my feet and shins are, and how hard they are to fit. Il Moros were much better than any other boot by a huge stretch(including Full Tils, which were terrible for me) and with the custom footbeds and liners I'm sure I will feel much better. I used to also have bad backseet(last years cliff landings were when it was bad, I usually skied out nearly sitting on the back of my skis) with no shin bang at all, but this year I did feel it, and I have worked a lot to change those landings this year, and do it rarely now. Just plain out landing a jump(or cliff) with a good landing, or anything along those lines, still hurts, but thats not with the upgrades comming for 09/10. Still thought I would see what people thought about the rolling idea. It was as much curiousity as actually wanting to risk it. thanks for the recomendations though, I probably should have mentioned what else I have done.

[riggs]

Dude, you need to figure out who the best bootfitter in your area is and spend some quality time there. Make an appointment at an off hour when the fitter's got plenty of time.
That means paying big bucks. A lot of people do their own molding around here, which makes perfect sense if you're not having problems. That shit sounds painful. Go get it taken care of.

edit: sounds like you're already on it.

[splat]

I've had to fit my own boots for the last 20 years. No one knows how it feels better than me and I like to adjust the fit anytime I feel something distracting in my foot. Sounds like you need to get a good injected liner, try a tongue shim, a booster strap, a footbed and find a shop that will let you use their boot press.

I'm thinking about chopping cement blocks in a karate class so I can clear my own private trails while skiing.

[SP_sam-O]

Dude, you need to figure out who the best bootfitter in your area is and spend some quality time there. Make an appointment at an off hour when the fitter's got plenty of time.
That means paying big bucks. A lot of people do their own molding around here, which makes perfect sense if you're not having problems. That shit sounds painful. Go get it taken care of.

edit: sounds like you're already on it.

yep, this is what I am planning on doing after the first day next season(as in..a short hike-to day before the lifts open, to see if I feel any difference than I do now and to know where to talk about on the boots). I have some free bootfitting(by a good bootfitter, not just a random shop guy) and will pay for more if needed, and will have the new liners and footbeds then, and I will talk to him about where needs to be shaved/etc. in the boots. Next season should be pretty epic with the ARGs or something similar that I will probably get, pipe cleaners, and 188 coombas, but mostly being able to ski like I should be with the customized boots. Again with the rolling thing, it was mostly curiousity, I would have only done it if I got a lot of people saying how great it is.

[skiingsamurai]

heres my take/understanding

I rolled my shins for karate to deaden the nerves around the front of my shin bone. It worked fine and I can take a fairly substantial hit to the shin without feeling it.

I used to get REALLY bad shin bang, even with dalbello's. It never hurt in the front of my shin, it hurt to the side, where the muscle meets the bone. The only cure I found was to get out of the back seat, and push through the pain. After enough days the pain went away. I can only assume this was because I finished tearing the muscle/connective tissue. No pain since. Im waiting till next season to see if the pain comes back.

summary, build the muscle up during training, break it down during the season

[SP_sam-O]

heres my take/understanding

I rolled my shins for karate to deaden the nerves around the front of my shin bone. It worked fine and I can take a fairly substantial hit to the shin without feeling it.

I used to get REALLY bad shin bang, even with dalbello's. It never hurt in the front of my shin, it hurt to the side, where the muscle meets the bone. The only cure I found was to get out of the back seat, and push through the pain. After enough days the pain went away. I can only assume this was because I finished tearing the muscle/connective tissue. No pain since. Im waiting till next season to see if the pain comes back.

summary, build the muscle up during training, break it down during the season

Thats what I was thinking might be good if I feel anything bad after I do all those upgrades next season. If the pain does come back, I guess you could just do it again? seems like this could be something to think about for me next season. After the gear upgrades though.

[Beder]

So with shin bang being a major problem this year for me with Salomon boots, I change to Dalbello. They didn't come with the intuitions(which I already complained about in another thread) so I will be getting custom footbeds and intuitions sometime in october or november.

Can't address the shin-rolling thing, but...

I had 3 pairs of Solly's in 3 seasons. Shin bang with all of them, even with Intuitions. This spring I tried on some Nordica Speedmachines and bought them. Same last width, but I went smaller, so tight that I had to have the toes punched. Shin bang gone. Stock liners.

[SP_sam-O]

Can't address the shin-rolling thing, but...

I had 3 pairs of Solly's in 3 seasons. Shin bang with all of them, even with Intuitions. This spring I tried on some Nordica Speedmachines and bought them. Same last width, but I went smaller, so tight that I had to have the toes punched. Shin bang gone. Stock liners.

yep, some of us simply can't use salomon boots. period. Last year they were perfect for me, this year not so much..even dif. models/liners...nothing worked. and the wierd thing for me is they FEEL better than some other boots, but for me the way they tighten(the lower part of the shell moves into your lower shin while tightening, try tightening without the liners in to see what i mean) makes it so they are worse than most boots while actually skiing. too bad, as they are light. I can't ski either of the two lightest boot brands out there haha(Salomon and FT).

[Atrain505]

I used to get REALLY bad shin bang, even with dalbello's. It never hurt in the front of my shin, it hurt to the side, where the muscle meets the bone. The only cure I found was to get out of the back seat, and push through the pain. After enough days the pain went away. I can only assume this was because I finished tearing the muscle/connective tissue. No pain since. Im waiting till next season to see if the pain comes back.

summary, build the muscle up during training, break it down during the season

This is not shin bang. That is shin splints.
Training during the offseason is your best bet. Lots of side to side type motions. High speed shuffles, quick changes of direction, jumping over logs super quick side to side, etc, etc.
Shin splints are a major problem for track athletes because they just run straight unlike any type of ball sport.
Get those muscles kicking.

And then...

get out of the back seat!

[kidwoo]

Once you've gotten out of the back seat and gotten your boots to fit: GET A BOOSTER STRAP. With normal stock straps, your leaning up against a rigid interface all day. Think about it. Go lean up against a shin high retaining wall all day and see how that feels. Booster straps allow some progressive give and honestly feel like suspension for your shins. I switched to them on my salomon boots this year and was pissed I hadn't done it earlier. Your solly boots aren't bad, just the way the stock straps work with them.

[shasti]

The single most important thing you can do to relieve "shin bang" which is actually not "bang" at all but the overstretching and partial tearing of your tibialis anterior is to get out of a position in which your foot is being extended as you absorb terrain.

Its not just getting out of the backseat : you can lean forward while still having your toes pressing down (plantar flexed) trying to absorb terrain. But the act of pushing your shin into the tongue of the boot WHILE PULLING YOUR TOES UP towards your shin will alleviate this condition. This stance is synonymous with "getting out of the backseat" but if you do so while pressing your toes down into your boots at all (plantar extention), you will not fix your problem. I am sorry to admit my friend that it is you, and not your boots at all, that are causing this condition.

Try to make sure you maintain the stance that I described while you ski, especially on bumpy chopped up terrain at high speed, landings, or absorbing difficult terrain in general ( pow days when you are charging like crazy are an ideal environment to cause this shin problem). Focus on having your weight mostly on your heels and absorbing the terrain with your hips ( read:do some core work )

If you actually do exactly what I describe, your pain will be gone within a month.

You see I had the EXACT same predicament when I started skiing. It was exacerbated by the fact that I am very tall, young, and strong like to ski HARD even though my form was shit. And it was many years until a light went off in my head when somebody told my too pull my toes up towards my shin while leaning forward. This is the correct position to ski in.

Now, this is not to say that well fitting boots will not help, as will a booster strap which may make it more pleasant to keep your shins dialed into the front of your tongues, but the only thing that will really alleviate this pain is if you stop stretching the fuck out of your shin muscles every time you go over a bump or or land a huck, as I described above. Good luck man and let me know how it goes.

[SP_sam-O]

Once you've gotten out of the back seat and gotten your boots to fit: GET A BOOSTER STRAP. With normal stock straps, your leaning up against a rigid interface all day. Think about it. Go lean up against a shin high retaining wall all day and see how that feels. Booster straps allow some progressive give and honestly feel like suspension for your shins. I switched to them on my salomon boots this year and was pissed I hadn't done it earlier. Your solly boots aren't bad, just the way the stock straps work with them.

Can't put a booster strap on Il Moros, but yes, I do know what you mean. They were on my Salomons.

The single most important thing you can do to relieve "shin bang" which is actually not "bang" at all but the overstretching and partial tearing of your tibialis anterior is to get out of a position in which your foot is being extended as you absorb terrain.

Its not just getting out of the backseat : you can lean forward while still having your toes pressing down (plantar flexed) trying to absorb terrain. But the act of pushing your shin into the tongue of the boot WHILE PULLING YOUR TOES UP towards your shin will alleviate this condition. This stance is synonymous with "getting out of the backseat" but if you do so while pressing your toes down into your boots at all (plantar extention), you will not fix your problem. I am sorry to admit my friend that it is you, and not your boots at all, that are causing this condition.

Try to make sure you maintain the stance that I described while you ski, especially on bumpy chopped up terrain at high speed, landings, or absorbing difficult terrain in general ( pow days when you are charging like crazy are an ideal environment to cause this shin problem). Focus on having your weight mostly on your heels and absorbing the terrain with your hips ( read:do some core work )

If you actually do exactly what I describe, your pain will be gone within a month.

You see I had the EXACT same predicament when I started skiing. It was exacerbated by the fact that I am very tall, young, and strong like to ski HARD even though my form was shit. And it was many years until a light went off in my head when somebody told my too pull my toes up towards my shin while leaning forward. This is the correct position to ski in.

Now, this is not to say that well fitting boots will not help, as will a booster strap which may make it more pleasant to keep your shins dialed into the front of your tongues, but the only thing that will really alleviate this pain is if you stop stretching the fuck out of your shin muscles every time you go over a bump or or land a huck, as I described above. Good luck man and let me know how it goes.

I do know what you are talking about. For me and Salomon boots, It was if I ever pulled my toes up my lower shin would jab into the boot, and I had to focus on not doing that, which did help a lot. I lost them, but a few ski days ago I was using socks with both a thicker toe area, and marerial that catches on the footbed more. They made it so I didn't slide like I do with my smooth old socks, and for the toe part it filled in part of the packed out liner and made it so I didn't even feel the need to pull up with my toes, which also helped a lot. What I did miss thinking about doing is skiing with my heels down but not leaning back, it seems like I always ski leaning forward(and I tend to get just a tad bit of heel lift) or if i am not paying attention leaning back. I guess if i stay more neutral like that it should help too. I guess next seasons boot "upgrades" will be the new custom footbeds, liners, some boot fitting, and some socks with a sticky or catchy kind of material that are fatter in the toes. I will also do what was mentioned by you and others.Last thing:
WHAT ARE SOME SOCKS THAT PREVENT SLIDING?

and, since this was about shin rolling thing, anyone have some good words about that? Thqanks for the help guys

[shasti]

First, just because i dont know if we are clear, I am saying that skiing in a stance with your shins pressed against the front of the boots while pulling up your toes toward your shins is what will heal this injury. Skiing in a stance which pushes your calves into the back of your boots ie: landing in the backseat but pulling out the landing anyway or skipping over some really gnarly chopped up terrain while chilling in the backseat, is what causes this problem because the shin muscle gets stretched as it is contracting. You are using your shin muscle to "pull" yourself back ontop of your skis. If you wikipedia "shin splints" you will get a breakdown of your condition seen in people who run in a manner so that the same stretching under tension happens every step. All I am saying is that getting out of the backseat involves pulling up on your toes too and really getting your weight over your boots so that your ankle is dorsiflexed (toes pulled to shin) while you ski. If you air something with fear, you generally land backseat, but if you commit to stomping it on your feet and absorbing it with your hips, there is less of a chance you will cause this issue.

Sorry to beat this one into the ground but I have lost so many ski days from the problem (maybe 40) that I know I am qualified to explain the way to prevent it, and I want to spare you any more pain.

Anyways, loose boots are one of the leading causes to inadvertant backseat skiing, so making sure you have your fit dialed will definately help, but working on my technique yeilded me the real benifit.

As for the rolling, I use it on my IT bands, but if you have pulled the muscle as I think you may have, it is inflamed rolling may not be the answer I am not sure.

[h2d]

Second recomendation to grab some BOOSTER straps. I used to get shin bang when i landed bigger jumps backseat, and the boosters have pretty much sorted that. (Not landing backseat i hasten to add....i still do that)

[SP_sam-O]

First, just because i dont know if we are clear, I am saying that skiing in a stance with your shins pressed against the front of the boots while pulling up your toes toward your shins is what will heal this injury. Skiing in a stance which pushes your calves into the back of your boots ie: landing in the backseat but pulling out the landing anyway or skipping over some really gnarly chopped up terrain while chilling in the backseat, is what causes this problem because the shin muscle gets stretched as it is contracting. You are using your shin muscle to "pull" yourself back ontop of your skis. If you wikipedia "shin splints" you will get a breakdown of your condition seen in people who run in a manner so that the same stretching under tension happens every step. All I am saying is that getting out of the backseat involves pulling up on your toes too and really getting your weight over your boots so that your ankle is dorsiflexed (toes pulled to shin) while you ski. If you air something with fear, you generally land backseat, but if you commit to stomping it on your feet and absorbing it with your hips, there is less of a chance you will cause this issue.

Sorry to beat this one into the ground but I have lost so many ski days from the problem (maybe 40) that I know I am qualified to explain the way to prevent it, and I want to spare you any more pain.

Anyways, loose boots are one of the leading causes to inadvertant backseat skiing, so making sure you have your fit dialed will definately help, but working on my technique yeilded me the real benifit.

As for the rolling, I use it on my IT bands, but if you have pulled the muscle as I think you may have, it is inflamed rolling may not be the answer I am not sure.

I read this post multiple times to make sure I understand it correctly. I now get you mean DO pull up your toes and don't lean back. That is not something I would not have thought helped but your explaining it helped, so I guess I will have to do this on Saturday since you sound like you know a lot about this. Don't ur feet get super tired by the end of the days if you are pulling up ur toes the whole time? thanks alot for the help.

Second recomendation to grab some BOOSTER straps. I used to get shin bang when i landed bigger jumps backseat, and the boosters have pretty much sorted that. (Not landing backseat i hasten to add....i still do that)

Already adressed, Il Moros don't hold booster straps, and like I said, I had them on my Salomons, and they HELPED but didn't STOP it. but for many people they are perfect.

[shasti]

The pulling up on your toes is more of a little reminder. When you pull up on your toes it puts your heels down, and increases the chances that your shins will be flush on the front of your boots. Most importantly, when you pull up on your toes, it forces you to absorb terrain with your hips: as the terrain undulates in slope angle, easiest seen in a bump field where the part of snow that you are in contact with is CONSTANTLY varying in slope angle, you adjust to this by flexing/extending your HIPS, while not changing a thing about how your foot is positioned in the boot. This is ideal skiing. Your muscles dont really get sore, even though it will strengthen the muscle in front of your shins which will reinforce your knee and ankle joints, because the ankle dorsiflexion is a tool to put your body in the right place over your skis. Once you feel it, you wont need to really pull up so aggressively. However, if you ever get in some sketchy terrain ie: super steep or rowdy lines, remind yourself to pull your toes up and ski dynamically with your hips. This will put you back in the right position to be the most balanced, and ski the most powerfully. And, obviously, get rid of those shin splints.

I have added a link of Eric Hjorliefson ripping HUGE pow lines. He is a gifted athlete but it illustrates my point well at least in the sense of how the ankle flexion is displayed in upper torso balance. If you watch his ski tips, they are constantly in contact with the snow, except for one or two backseat landings, even though he is skiing pow. He drives the ski with his knees foward and does not lean back, seen in the fact that his ski tails release so EASILY. If you watched a vid of most good skiers trying to ski this they would get in the backseat all the time. He adjusts for the undulating slope angle by bringing his knees closer to/farther from, his torso.

http://mspfilms.com/files/active/1/1283_large.mov

[Concussed]

I think I need shasti to give me a ski lesson...good stuff man.

[Hutch]

I have added a link of Eric Hjorliefson ripping HUGE pow lines. He is a gifted athlete but it illustrates my point well at least in the sense of how the ankle flexion is displayed in upper torso balance. If you watch his ski tips, they are constantly in contact with the snow, except for one or two backseat landings, even though he is skiing pow. He drives the ski with his knees foward and does not lean back, seen in the fact that his ski tails release so EASILY. If you watched a vid of most good skiers trying to ski this they would get in the backseat all the time. He adjusts for the undulating slope angle by bringing his knees closer to/farther from, his torso.

http://mspfilms.com/files/active/1/1283_large.mov

Great vid, and it illustrates your point well.

[SP_sam-O]

The pulling up on your toes is more of a little reminder. When you pull up on your toes it puts your heels down, and increases the chances that your shins will be flush on the front of your boots.http://mspfilms.com/files/active/1/1283_large.mov

ahhhh that makes a lot of sense. I'll do that tomorrow.

I think I need shasti to give me and sam a ski lesson...good stuff man.

fixed

[Crampedon]

Good thread, any chance of getting the vid link going again?

[Wild4umlauts]

Can't put a booster strap on Il Moros, but yes, I do know what you mean.

Just adding some correction since this statement is just plain wrong. A Booster definitely works with any of the Dalbello Krypton-type boots.

[SP_sam-O]

Just adding some correction since this statement is just plain wrong. A Booster definitely works with any of the Dalbello Krypton-type boots.

I guess that you could take off the large snowboard type strap and put a booster in it's place. Didn't really realize that at the time. I have Falcons now and don't use my boosters.