Your thoughts...banning resort skier for public comments?

[splat]

Don't you just hate it when you stand up for what's right, and the parties involved step around the issue, engage in some butt sex (I'm not sure who did who, but I think they both took it in the ass smiling), and think the issue is resolved?

The issue is not resolved. This was not about getting a pass back, although that was part of the goal, it was about shitting on people, and having no remorse for it. It was about accountability of management for their actions and words.

I am glad the pass was returned. I am glad the parties involved are happy. I am pissed that the underlying issue is still unresolved.

Oh, you guys. How can I not love your fiery demands for a statement from the corporate perpetrators acknowledging their misdeeds? I would be very surprised to see it. There are so many precedents that have been set here it's staggering. Free speech has prevailed and a warning shot has been fired across the bow of corporate America, specifically, in our little arena of snowsports. For SK to post here again, he would have to set another precedent - apologizing. If he truly knew how it worked, he'd do that. But I'm not betting on it. It might well be too much for his managerial gapertude to grasp. If nothing else, this whole affair has shown everyone here the power of their numbers, the need to protest injustice and that the good fight can be won.
We didn't get JJ either, but he knows we're everywhere.

[Tye 1on]

I'm not sure who i'm more disappointed with, Boyne management, although they ended up making a good decision, [from what little i know], or the Sugarloafers who think they call the shots on the discussion. Almost sounds like they are the ones trying to limit the interwebz discourse now...

The whole thing's been a pile of crap stirred up by the OP, who can stay the hell over on his little sugaryforums for all i care. This entire shootin match would have ended up at the same resolution if they would have just tried actually talking to management.

There's a lot i really dig about the net. But the lynch mob mentality, and i'll put my foot in my mouth even further, perpetuated by a lot of 2008/09 joiners, isn't a part of the webz that adds any value.

Life, in reality, is still all about people, not posts on some forum or another. If we spent half the time actually talking to the people we flame i'll bet ya we'd figure out we all have a lot more in common than we thought...

[splat]

Life, in reality, is still all about people, not posts on some forum or another. If we spent half the time actually talking to the people we flame i'll bet ya we'd figure out we all have a lot more in common than we thought...

Yeah, but try rounding up 15,000 people to go talk to someone when you need them for a face to face discussion...

[Tye 1on]

Yeah, but try rounding up 15,000 people to go talk to someone when you need them for a face to face discussion...

Pat, just the one of you in person can often accomplish more than 15,000 posters on line. And that's no shit.

FKNA!!!!

[stihletto]

i don't like the mob lynch mentality, but this issue needed attention.

Hopefully, this forum can be one of less irrational conspiracy theory and more objective feedback and dialogue. If it does not it will become shut out, as a source of information and those who participate will be not welcome to enjoy that great mountain.

I'm all about truth. Truth is that statement sucks. I think some people at Boyne realize it now. Thanks in part to tgr.

[rideit]

Here's the deal, in a real time application.
Apology from skircher, i take family to Big Sky, stay, Mt. Bike, spend money, and enjoy.

NO communication further from skircher, and, well, buh-bye...we have GREAT riding here in the Tetons. No cash spent, period. and all who enquire as to Boyne resorts, well, they will be told whassup, and linked to this thread. And believe me, SK, (just look at my post count) that is EVERYONE who asks.

[PrankMonkey]

Celphtaught, why delete the post? What do you mean that admin at the sugarbush forums did their best to clear out traces of VZ? When I looked around on the 'bush forums, all that was available to be found, and all anyone was referencing in relation to the issue was the thread regarding the accident, specifically the "Cu$tomer" comment contained within. If there was stuff deleted that could shed light on the issue, spill it. It could go a ways toward putting things into perspective.

[hardboots]

that kids a douche, i knew that girl and have friends who were close to her. having a friend who died recently in an avalanche in montana this hits home. while i do not agree with boyne usa's pulling of his pass, which seems to be a direct violation of his free speech rights, i can't say i feel bad for him at all. when he loses someone close to him bring him back and see if he still has that cocky attitude. fuckhead.

I'm very sorry for your loss. But stop beating around the bush, and name the insensitive asshole:

Vermont skier seriously injured at Sugarloaf
BY BETTY JESPERSEN
Staff Writer Kennebec Journal
CARRABASSETT VALLEY -- A 16-year-old Vermont skier was seriously injured Monday when she lost control on a trail at Sugarloaf and struck a tree, a company spokesman said.
The girl, who was not identified by Sugarloaf authorities, was flown off the mountain and taken to Central Maine Medical Center in Lewiston.

According to Carrabassett Valley Police Chief Scott Nichols, the girl was seriously injured and suffered head and leg injuries. He said Sugarloaf authorities had not released the girl's name to his office.

The accident happened on the Spillway trail. Spokesman Ethan Austin said the girl was on a ski team from Stratton Mountain in Vermont that was at Sugarloaf for Speed Week, a training week for alpine ski events.

She was not on the race course when the accident occurred, he said.

"The accident was not related to the conditions," Austin said. "She lost control of her skis."

There. I did it for you.

I'm kinda of impressed that Boyne actually pulled that guy's pass too. By the way, where did you hear that?

[KillingCokes]

Betty Jespersen, the author of the original newspaper article, has also had her pass refunded.

THIS PART NEEDS SOME ATTENTION AS WELL

[SuomyNona]

Let me be the first to point out exactly what Boyne/Sugarloaf should do when someone criticizes them online: Respond to the the criticism.

If I say that a resort doesn't care about the safety of it's paying customers, RESPOND, and explain why you can't or won't remedy the dangerous situation.

If a resort is concerned about customers criticizing specific employees, DEFEND the actions taken by those employees.

The correct response to free speech is - MORE free speech.

Banning someone is not a response, it's a reaction, which will generate more reactions.

[emtnate]

Betty Jespersen, the author of the original newspaper article, has also had her pass refunded.

Ethan Austin, who spoke the words that caused all this fuss, is no longer employed by Sugarloaf or Boyne.

Well, no, it's not true.
But come on, they started it...
All this other guy did was draw attention to what he said, and what she wrote.
So he gets his pass yanked, and they get to go on like nothing happened? Hardly seems fair.

Apparently some people suck at reading. Although taking the story as it has been told here, it wouldn't surprise me if these people need to find a new job.

[NorthernSpotted...]

Celphtaught, why delete the post? What do you mean that admin at the sugarbush forums did their best to clear out traces of VZ? When I looked around on the 'bush forums, all that was available to be found, and all anyone was referencing in relation to the issue was the thread regarding the accident, specifically the "Cu$tomer" comment contained within. If there was stuff deleted that could shed light on the issue, spill it. It could go a ways toward putting things into perspective.

I'm not sure what celphtaught wrote but there was a satirical newpaper article "written" over on Sugarloaf Today that mentioned Sugarloaf trying to remove all traces VZ from the website. It was obviously a joke and I think someone's just really studpid.

http://www.sugarloaftoday.com/chat/v...416&highlight=

I'm kinda of impressed that Boyne actually pulled that guy's pass too. By the way, where did you hear that?

They didn't. Celphtaught was refering to VonZipe. I'm fairly certain Ethan Austin is still an employee in good standing of Sugarloaf and as such he can probably ski at his leisure.

And BTW, I expressed my disgust at Austin's comments in that article earlier but it is possible those comments were made in the context of an interview with reporters. They ask a question, he answers it. If that's the case, he could have been more sensitive but it might not have the corporate CYA spin job that it appears to be. Just sayin'...


EDIT: ....and I just found this over at Sugarloaf today. Posted by none other than Ethan Austin. I think we can ease up on him a bit. However, until we see something like this from SK, I say fire away, my friends, fire away. It might actually work. He's got posters over on Sugarloaf Today telling him he should just apologize given the shit storm over here. You never know...

Hey guys

The day of the accident last month was truly a terrible one for me and for the entire Sugarloaf family, and it’s more than a little disheartening to have people suggest that I felt anything less than the utmost grief and sympathy for the victim and her family.

In speaking to reporters on the day of the accident, I was asked by a writer what the conditions were like on the trail where it occurred, and if they may have played any part in the accident. I described the conditions to her and informed her that according to ski patrol it appeared that the accident was not related to the conditions, and that it seemed she simply lost control of her skis.

There was never a press release sent out about the incident, there was no prefabricated statement, and nobody told me to communicate anything about the conditions to the press. I answered the questions that were asked, with the facts that I had. The quote was 14 words out of a 15 minute conversation, and if I could go back I probably would have chosen them a bit more carefully.

We view tragic incidents such as this as very private matters, which is why I refrained from posting this until now. I sincerely wish that I didn’t have to bring this up again, but after recent posts, I felt the need to clarify my statement.

[advres]

I wanna know why "mainiac" has deleted all of his posts here? He was very critical of past management and also of Boyne. He ended his first post with "(I will remain anonymous as I need my pass. mainiac is not my handle on sugarloaftoday. On that site, I use a nickname that is known well locally)".

If you, mainiac, have been told or pressured in any way to remove your statements we need to know. I see no reason to remove them as they had good background info in them. The only reason I see that you would is if you were threatened with some punishment. AND, if that is the case, that is all the more reason to keep them posted here and stand up for your rights.

[skircher]

Sugarloafers & others,

Yes, I did modify my post in the sugarloaftoday forum after I reread it and realized it did not read as I had intended and I apologize for making such a reckless error. (yes, I understand that some will call me out on this but those who really know me know this is the truth)

What I meant in long form was that, since our team members are frequent readers of the sugarloaftoday site and others like it, it is our intent to garner constructive feedback from those forums, and in the long run non constructive commentary -- by human nature is likely not be taken to heart and is less effective in garnering change.

Therefore, this nonconstructive feedback would likely not be used by members of our team as one of our valuable feedback loops. I have seen that firsthand since Boyne Resorts became involved in the East and now understand why the ASC “don’t engage with folks on those forums” policy – seemed to be less effective at moving toward common goals and developing mutual understanding.

As a company we read (and participate in) in forums as just one of our guest touch points. We also frequently interact using many other means including satisfaction surveys and direct contact such as meeting with as well as socializing with guests and key stakeholders. The constructive feedback is almost always acted upon.

Follow-up From My Commitment To Investigate The Season Pass Situation:
After further discussion with the Sugarloaf team, it became clear since my last post, that it was the emotional attachment to the trauma resulting from the accident were the catalysts for the pass suspension. It was not their intent to suppress free speech.

The team was wrong to allow posted comments or such emotion to play a part in their decision to revoke skiing privileges and acknowledge that both, along with past issues, clouded their judgment in this case. Our 60 year track record shows Boyne Resorts has not desired to suppress feedback or negative comments and this was the first of our resorts that I am aware of to have an occurrence of this nature. We always endeavor to engage in constructive dialogue with our customers and will continue to do so in the future. I again apologize for any inference to the contrary in my earlier post.

You should also know that the resort team did not issue a press release regarding the accident. It was in the course of a several minute interview answering specific questions about that tragic day. One of those questions was a direct question about the trail condition. We regret not being more sensitive when choosing words used in response to the reporter’s question and then ultimately to Matt (vonzipe/exiled) in the ensuing conversation about the post regarding the quote.

Meeting Results:
I am also pleased to have learned; that Jim Costello (the director of sales and marketing for Sugarloaf) and Matt did meet to work out the issues between them. As a result of that meeting they did indeed find reconciliation and reached common ground, Matt is now fully back in the Sugarloaf family. I also know that the team has learned from these recent interactions and are working toward a fresh start and toward a brighter future for Sugarloaf.

I personally want to personally and on behalf of Boyne Resorts apologize to Matt o for the consternation that he has endured and thank him for his objectivity and maturity while working through this matter in the past several days.

It is my sincere belief that the team at Sugarloaf and by association, the entire Boyne Resorts team, has learned a lasting lesson to better measure our actions when dealing in these scenarios. We will be and already are a better company for it.

I have been told by many industry colleagues not to avoid engaging in these communication mediums, but I still have the belief that interacting in this manner can be helpful in building a bridge between owners and customers and can assist in making us all better in the end.

As a family owned company we respectfully request your forgiveness for this impactful incident that was exacerbated by our team’s initial reaction and my lack of sensitivity in some of my comments.

Hopefully, we can put this behind us and all go out and enjoy our local ski area this weekend.

Respectfully,

SK

[BigDaddy]

From what I can figure out, I think it all basically boils down to this: (NOTE: I could be all wrong.)

A skier dies. The paper reports it. VZ makes his comment about SL covering ass. Jim Costello, the Boyne man who spoke to the family of the deceased skier, is tremendously insulted. Jim Costello, in an emotional outrage, revokes VZ's pass. SK, in backing his man on the front lines, comes out in his defense. Boyne looks really stupid. We get all excited. They realize things got out of hand. They talk it over with VZ, who is very apologetic, and give pass back.

I really think this was just an emotionally charged response to someone (VZ) who was good at pushing buttons. I've exchanged e-mails with VZ and he sounds extremely embarrassed and never wanted this to get so big. That this has all arisen and is now overshadowing the young woman's death, makes it all the more painful. I could be wrong, but it's the best I can figure, given what is out there.

Let’s hope we don’t have to face what these people have had to deal with anytime soon. My thoughts and sympathies go out to the survivors.


EDIT: I wrote all this before SK's post. Good for him for clearing the air and apologizing. Sounds like they are human, too. I apologize for my sarcastic e-mail contributing to the ruckus.

[Tye 1on]

SK thanks for continuing to keep this forum in the loop. And in my opinion, you and your team did a great job, with couple of minor missteps that you have graciously acknowledged, in addressing an honest mistake that blew up into a storm. Sharing the 'lessons learned' may be helpful for other business owners on the forum.

It would be great to see you stick around and chime in on this board, I think you'd be challenged to find a forum with more genuinely awesome people that are dedicated to skiing and boarding in amazing places. You'd learn a lot that's not covered in mainstream media, and we'd certainly be interested in your perspective as a ski area owner-operator.

Yep, certainly skiing this weekend. Think I'm going to check out that bluegrass festival at Big Sky...Hopefully you'll get some turns in as well...

[maine-man]

Thank you Mr. Kircher for taking the time to look into the matter, understanding the unintended meaning of words/posts/communication in our new informational age, and offering your 'lessons learned' - as I said before, NO ONE IS THE WINNER ON THIS ONE. As a vested Sugarloafer at heart, I was shaken by the actions and commentary discussed here, and while we all can be emotional (just look at some of the stuff that flies around this place), it was certainly difficult for me to accept those actions without critical review.

That said, I have seen very positive trends at Sugarloaf directly the result of CNL/Boyne's purchase, investment, and management. While this bump in the road certainly carries with it some angst from management-past, I hope that future actions and lessons learned will only make the mountain, and your company, stronger in the long run.

I highly recommend that you and your staff stay involved with this new informational medium, the cost-benefit of such practices are very hard to put on a balance sheet but the overall impact is substantial. If you question my statements, just look at some members of this forum, like splat, who run ski companies with a very strong following because of his connection and involvement with this forum, and gets direct feedback (good and bad) from his customer base.

[doughboyshredder]

Wow. Impressive.

Thank you Mr. Kircher.

[KillingCokes]

Very impressed with a very well written apology, in a very public place.

[wardog]

It looks to me like Steve Kircher has posted here as a real person, without a lawyer looking over his shoulder. He admits that he has made mistakes, and he apologizes for the mistakes. He also apologizes for the mistakes of his employees.

Nobody is perfect. It is not easy to run a large division of a corporation. Hell, I can't even handle working as an employee in a big corporation, because the BS makes me puke. But corporations, like government, are a natural expression of human nature, for better or worse. We are all human and we all share some blame for the injustices in the world.

Steve, thanks for your communication and for your apologies. I am still disgusted by the trail conditions statement in the newspaper article that triggered this hoopla. In my opinion, it is likely that somebody in Sugarloaf management either planted the conditions statement or approved it before it was published. But I can't prove that, so I'll say no more about it.

BIG thanks to everyone who stood up for free speech. This thread, with all its imperfections, is a good thing.

[ACH]

SK - Thank you for your thoughtful post and continued involvement in this discussion. As others have suggested, stick around and engage...

Better start padding your post count

[rdennhs]

Steve, it takes a lot to reach out to us, and even more to make an apology in such a large community, with your own name on it. You guys made a big fucking mistake, but everyone does...everyone is human here. It shows a lot about your character coming on here and informing people of this stuff.

It's a new day in management and technology, we've all learned a lot through this thread.

[krick]

SK - I'm one of the many people here who called you out for your previous comments, and I hope I'm one of what turns out to be many people here who applauds your last post. It doesn't right the wrongs (that bell cannot be un-rung), but it does show understanding and a sincere desire to make amends. Nicely done.

[likwid]

Yeah, but try rounding up 15,000 people to go talk to someone when you need them for a face to face discussion...

How do you round up 10,000 aliases?

[MultiVerse]

Getting all the facts and not rushing to judge is, well, good judgment. But let’s not forget, that without the outrage expressed in this forum (by both old and new members) and the explicit call to action, Boyne would have—in all likelihood—“moved on” after quickly sweeping the facts aside.

However, Mr. Kircher stepped up and showed himself to be both intelligent and honorable while a few members of the Maine community ended up being less than forthright. The most important thing, though, is that Boyne remains engaged rather than becoming more circumspect (thoughtful is still good) and secretive the next time something like this happens.